Hi Rick --

The Bronze Age ended around 1200BC. Check out the history of 
Martensite which is iron that has been treated by heating and 
pounding in carbon and quenching to make the first kind of steel.

If I recall well enough, quite a few steel Martensite steel artifacts 
(mostly knives and farming tools) have been found and dated to the 
11th century BC (many of these in Cyprus). Quenching of steel BTW is 
mentioned in Homer's Odyssey which was put together in the 9th and 
8th century BC.

The Romans had steel arms, and their success was due to their 
organizational abilities and discipline. The Scythians were able to 
hold them off and generally discourage them because they were the 
greatest archers in the world at that time and didn't play by the 
rules. They fought from horseback with powerful long-range recurve 
bows, etc.

Cheers,

Alan

At 6:28 PM -0700 8/25/03, Rick McGeer wrote:
>I'll regret asking this, but...
>
>as I (dimly) recall, the threshold between the bronze age and the 
>iron age was with the development of coal fires hot enough to smelt 
>iron + carbon into carbon steel.  As far as I know, this technology 
>was first used in the west several centuries into the Common Era, 
>though one can find references to steel swords in one text that 
>purports to recount events in ancient Jerusalem -- to wit, the Book 
>of Mormon, in which Lehi reports being attacked by men with steel 
>swords in Jerusalem in the period just before the Babylonian exile.
>
>It wouldn't surprise me if steel showed up in Japan or China in the 
>BCE period, but wouldn't a steel-armed army pretty handily dispose 
>of bronze-armed opponents?   If that's the case, how does one 
>explain the  success of the (bronze-armed) Roman legions in the 
>middle east if there were steel-armed Scythians, or Hebrews, or 
>Assyrians, or...
>
>Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
>
>>   Alan,
>>
>>   Well, I didn't mean to claim anything, but I just found it funny
>>that a vague "samurai swords" thing is used as a (an arbitrary)
>>reference point in the sword history...
>>
>>-- Yoshiki
>>
>>At Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:45:51 -0800,
>>Alan Kay wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Yes, my recollection is that the idea of laminating steel in many
>>>layers to make resiliant swords quite antedates Europe, and was first
>>>developed in Asia and in the Middle East. Just as the recurve bow
>>>already existed in China during Roman times (IIRC) and this
>>>technology was used by the Scythians to decisively defeat the Romans
>>>several times and effectively discourage them from occupying their
>>>territory.
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>
>>>Alan
>>>
>>>------
>>>
>>>At 10:36 AM -0700 8/25/03, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
>>>    
>>>
>>>>   Piers,
>>>>
>>>>   Now, it is really off-topic...
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>>  Not that the Dark Ages were actually backwards, just that stuff
>>>>>  didn't tend to get written down. Take a look at the technology
>>>>>  involved in making, say, a Saxon sword (which used essentially the
>>>>>  same techniques as were developed centuries later in Japan to make
>>>>>  Samurai swords) or the quality of work in things like the Ardagh
>>>>>  Chalice.
>>>>>        
>>>>>
>>>>   What century you are talking about?  (And what is
>>>>"Samurai swords", I should ask.)
>>>>
>>>>-- Yoshiki
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
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>Rick McGeer
>
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