Using ideas presented in papers

Stephane Ducasse ducasse at iam.unibe.ch
Thu May 29 12:49:12 UTC 2003


Hi hans

so you should ***really*** look at what we did with codecrawler because  
our constraint where that
people should be able to reproduce in their contexts our ideas.
Have fun.

By the way in the french squeak mailing list there was a discussion  
between people about building a
graph library. So this could be also a way to collaborate. I put samir  
on cc if you want to contact
him. May be michele would be interested if we could build on his  
experience: he has already graph,
edge, nodes....and layout algorithms.


Stef

On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 02:40 PM, Hans Nikolaus Beck wrote:

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> Hi Stephane,
>
>
> Am Mittwoch, 28.05.03 um 09:53 Uhr schrieb Stephane Ducasse:
>
>> Hi hans
>>
>> I'm interested in the papers you mention. Could you just point me to  
>> the papers.
>> You may like to know that michele lanza just put on his webpage his  
>> PhD on this kind of topics.
>> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~lanza/
>
> Thank you very much for this link, because I'm interested using the  
> Squeak environement to build a software engineering and -visualization  
> tool (because  I'm not a PhD candidat but a  software engineer in a  
> small company there is not very much time for such "research" or "fun  
> stuff"  ;-))).
>
> The papers that I mean are "Software Visualization in the Large" by,  
> T. Ball, S.G. Eick from Bell Labs, Computer, Vol 29. No 4 (1996)
>  and
> "Using Visualization to Maintain Large Computer Systems" by D.E.  
> Fyock, IEEE Computer Graphics and Applications Vol 17 No. 4 (1997)
>
> but these papers are only a starting point, I want to use more UML  in  
> the "graphic pipline" too, i.e. by using the conector stuff or what  
> ever.....and I want to  keep such tools open to other paradims  
> (functional and declarative programming).
>
> Greetings
>
> Hans
>
>
>>
>> CodeCrawler is working in VW
>> Stef
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 27, 2003, at 08:07 PM, Hans Nikolaus Beck wrote:
>>
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>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>> Am Dienstag, 27.05.03 um 06:10 Uhr schrieb Alan Kay:
>>>
>>>> Thanks Andrew --
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks from me too, Andrew and the others. Of course I will contact  
>>> the authors, and I also will have a look, if there are already  some  
>>> comercial products there. (BTW,  the point of interest are  
>>> visualization techniques for source code, described in IEEE Computer  
>>> Graphics & Visualization somewhere between 1995-1997)
>>>
>>> Thanks all.
>>>
>>> Hans
>>>
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>> At 8:09 PM -0400 5/26/03, Andrew C. Greenberg wrote:
>>>>> That would be too reasonable to expect of a Federal statute, Alan.  
>>>>> Alas, the Patent Act generally proscribes ANY practicing of a  
>>>>> patent during the term, whether commercial or not (Making, using,  
>>>>> selling, offering for sale).  The only interesting question is  
>>>>> whether the conduct infringes -- not whether it was "goodie,  
>>>>> goodie" enough to avoid liability.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, there is case law supporting an "experimental use" or  
>>>>> "fair use" exception.  An interesting article on the subject can  
>>>>> be found at:
>>>>>
>>>>> 	http://www.idea.piercelaw.edu/articles/30/p243.Grossman.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> This exception is not very well-developed or clear, perhaps at the  
>>>>> level of the initial fair use case under the 1909 Act case law  
>>>>> (which recognized a fair use exception without a statute).
>>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, May 26, 2003, at 08:39 PM, Alan Kay wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think you have infringed the patent. But now I'm not so  
>>>>>> sure. I think there used to be a provision that individuals could  
>>>>>> make a single version of anything for their own use (Andrew?).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that the patent stuff is supposed to prevent competition  
>>>>>> for sale of ideas and technologies, but it doesn't prevent people  
>>>>>> making onesies for themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a different but related notion of "fair use" in  
>>>>>> copyright law. One of the things that is most under attack right  
>>>>>> now is "fair use" and what it means -- and indeed what patents  
>>>>>> and copyrights actually mean these days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  At 5:57 PM -0400 5/26/03, Rick McGeer wrote:
>>>>>>> Alan,
>>>>>>> Of course, one should always attribute.  But there is another  
>>>>>>> question here. Suppose somebody patents a structure or protocol  
>>>>>>> without implementing it.  I independently discover the thing, or  
>>>>>>> something closely related, and implement it to see how it works  
>>>>>>> in practice, how it fits with existing stuff, etc.  In the  
>>>>>>> tradition of scientific publication, I want not only to write up  
>>>>>>> the results but also release the source so others can play with  
>>>>>>> the idea, experiment, extend, etc.  I've got no interest in  
>>>>>>> selling the thing or exploiting it commercially.  Question: have  
>>>>>>> I infringed the patent, am I liable for damages, etc?  It would  
>>>>>>> be really nasty to get sued for writing a paper...
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Rick.
>>>>>>> Alan Kay writes:
>>>>>>>> I don't think you do need the agreement. But it is the  
>>>>>>>> tradition of science to always give attribution to the creators  
>>>>>>>> of the ideas. So "use and attribute".
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Alan
>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>> At 7:08 PM +0200 5/25/03, Hans Nikolaus Beck wrote:
>>>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>> if I want to implement  an algorithm or visualization  
>>>>>>>>> technique in an open source project  (in fact: squeak) which  
>>>>>>>>> was presented in a public paper (in this case IEEE Computer  
>>>>>>>>> Graphics & Visualization), do I need the agreement of the  
>>>>>>>>> authors ? That's a question related to the current situation  
>>>>>>>>> of software patents and copyright as given by law of USA.  My  
>>>>>>>>> feeling says: I need the agreement.
>>>>>>>>> Greetings
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hans
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>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Rick McGeer           Ph: (925) 254-2524
>>>>>>> 50 Diablo View Road  FAX: (925) 253-0623
>>>>>>> Orinda, CA, 94563    Cell: (510) 334-6004
>>>>>>> eMail: rick at mcgeer.com
>>>>>>> Yahoo IM: rickmcgeer
>>>>>>> MSN IM: rickmcgeer at hotmail.com
>>>>>>> AOL IM: rick mcgeer 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
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