On Sat, Nov 01, 2003 at 04:56:43PM +0100, Diego Gomez Deck wrote:
> > This is why I use Python libs for various graphics. 
> 
> Go ahead! please continue using python!
> 
> If you think that Squeak is a set of clean libraries you didn't see the
> point at all.

Very true, but you can't deny that clean libraries and comprehensive 
documentation would be nice.

> 
> > Morphics internal graphics 
> > architecture is a rats nest of conflicting code, and half the 
> > translation/rotation features are broken in various ways. Everyone talks 
> > about fixing it, but no one ever does. It really makes doing any non-trivial 
> > graphics programming in Squeak a pain.
> > 
>
> > Everyone is too busy building the next cool one-off project, and no one is 
> > cleaning up or maintaining the morphic infrastructure. 

I can see why Diego responded with the tone that he did, since he has put a
significant amount of work into the Morphic Cleaning Project.

> > Nevermind the fun I 
> > had trying to get sound to work under Linux.

Is it Squeak being the PITA, or Linux?  It's not as easy for a bunch
of volunteers to write a VM that will run on every Linux distribution
on every platform in their spare time, for free, and without access to
machines with these distributions installed.  Is there a python sound
library that works identically on MacOS (9 and X), Solaris, Linux,
Windows, etc., with no set-up hassles at all on any of them?  If there
is, then maybe we should look at it to help us figure out how to
improve our sound support.  If not, then why exactly did you bring up
the example?

> 
> What about you? Are you also busy building the next cool project?
> 
> What about contributing?
> 
> > With Python, everything I've wanted to do works.

Can you point to any really innovative graphics packages in python
that don't just rehash old ideas?  You very well may be able to; I
don't follow Python too closely.  My point is that it is much easier
to do a clean, well-documented implementation of something that has
been done before than it is to do something new.  I haven't personally
seen anything particularly interesting done in Python, graphics-wise.

(well, except for Zonkger's presentation software that is part of his
dissertation work at the University of Washington.  The coolness of his
work notwithstanding, I think it would be easier to do a better version
in Squeak)

I bet that if I started using Python graphics, it wouldn't be too
long before I bumped into limitations where I'd have to write a lot
of my own code anyway.  Maybe I should take myself up on that bet ;-)

> With Squeak, everything I've want to do works and I change the rest in a
> living environment.

I'm with you, Diego.

Joshua


> 
> With python (and every source based tools) I feel like walking is a
> cemetery.
> 
> > -Daniel
> 
> -- 
> Diego Gomez Deck
> http://www.small-land.org
>