Avi asked (of Zope):

> How does the transition between the
> "webmaster" and "developer" mindsets work?  I'm not a big fan of the
> usual approach, which is "oh, this is still a static html file like
> you're used to, it just has a little bit of code embedded in it".

and Eric Merritt wrote (which I think answers the question perfectly):

>  In many shops the devs will get together with the
> artists and admins to design an application. The
> graphics artists will usually mock up  most of the
> application in html, then the junior coders will
> insert templating script and controller code while the
> more senior guys code up the business logic.

In other words, Zope is certainly capable of transcending the 
static-file web model, but common development practices aren't. My 
experience with using Zope is that, on my own, I can do things that are 
much more clean and conceptual, using objects as "objects," but that in 
a larger setting with a bunch of designers, HTML wonks, etc, this 
becomes way more difficult, and Zope ends up being a 
template-with-embedded-code engine like all the rest.

The difference is in the practices... but I'm interested in looking at 
Seaside to see if there's enough Squeak/ST culture embedded in it that 
it can point beyond the way people tend to think about web development.


  - John Maxwell
    jmax at sfu.ca