Tim Rowledge wrote:

>Rob, please, if at all possible, turn off html posting.
>  
>
Sorry - have done.

>Rob Lally <smalltalk at roblally.plus.com> wrote:
>
>>Early UI's used them.
>>    
>>
>Not ones that I remember; but then I can't have seen them all event
>back that far. Mac is actually the first one I can think of, then GEM
>(anyone remember that particular horror?), JAWS (an IBM research
>internal attempt at a coders desktop), then Windows. Smalltalk preceeds
>all of them handily. No menubar there.
>
When I said early, I was thinking back to the early days of the Mac. 
Before that I have no real knowledge or experience. GEM, been there done 
that, removed all contaminated brain cells with a spoon.

>>ost current UI's use them.
>>    
>>
>Depends how you want to count. After all in the grand scheme of number
>of users, only Windwos exists. All else would be considered noise on
>the plot.
>
Lets count another way, I like windows, but I really want other things 
to exist too.

>>nyone designing a
>>new UI would probably use them - then again Croquet hasn't, and it is
>>the most recent UI I can think of.
>>    
>>
>_I_ certainly wouldn't. I don't think Jef Raskin would again, at least
>not a screen menu bar.
>
>  
>
>>Most computers built with mice over
>>the last couple of decades have an OS that supports them in most, if
>>not all, of their applications.
>>    
>>
>"It's normal" is not always a guide to what's right or good.
>  
>
Which was what prompted my original question. Since most things in 
Squeak seem to have been done for a good reason ... I was wondering what 
the good reasons were.

>>Decent UI textbooks all recomend having menu bars, context sensitive
>>popup menus and keyboard shortcuts, ideally providing three ways to
>>access any functionality. Of these menu bars are generally considered
>>considered most important, particularly for novices
>>    
>>
>Can't agree there. We have two obvious counter-examples to hand, RISC
>OS (which has been used in schools since 1987, has no menu bars, has
>had anti-aliased graphics since 88, and is still going ) and eToys (not
>quite so old but probably being used in more schools than Acorn even
>dreamt of). 
>
>>It only matters if you are keen on 'platform compliance' rather than
>>'good UI'. And that depends on the market for your work - sometimes
>>platform compliance is utterly crucial, sometimes it simply doesn't
>>matter.
>>Anyone interested in 'platform compliance' is unlikely to find their
>>home in Squeak.
>>    
>>
>Depends; we (as in TK4 project/ John & I) have just released a multipel
>host windows system. Others have done various levels of platform
>compliance work. 
>
Are you planning to go down the native toolkit path or are we still 
going to keep the current distinctive squeak feel?

Rob.