I don't want to speak for Alexander, but I'm going to go out on a limb 
here: I believe he agrees with you that the test can be simple and 
should be included. By suggesting a process, Alexander is strongly 
implying that it isn't the people at fault -- the system is the cause of 
the problem and the cause of the solution. If we want to improve the 
situation, improve the system.

brad

stéphane ducasse wrote:

> Indeed but where is the integration with Mantis? Nowhere right now. 
> While writing a simple test is still a 1 min effort.
>
> Stef
>
> On 18 sept. 04, at 18:54, Brad Fuller wrote:
>
>> It sounded to me that Alexander understood the issue you explained 
>> and proposed a process that included a way to alleviate your issue.
>>
>> stéphane ducasse wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry alexander
>>>
>>> you miss my point, my point is not about the process of harvesting. 
>>> My point is about
>>> recording in executable manner knowledge about the system. This is 
>>> not linked to any bureaucratic
>>> mechanism. People are crying that there is no documentation about 
>>> squeak, then they build big plans,
>>> then NOTHING happens but they talked and talked and talked. While 
>>> writing a 1 min test is a small
>>> but a real tangible step in that direction, and in addition I can 
>>> understand it.
>>>
>>> Have a look at the test of UUID, you do not need to be an expert to 
>>> understand them and everybody can write
>>> tests like that.
>>>
>>> Just for your information, I started to harvest without BFAV and 
>>> this is a HUGE improvement.
>>> Still, just uploading a single file in the update stream is painful, 
>>> marcus is working on that.
>>> We have to check conflict, updload file, rename cs...
>>>
>>> Now people can talk hours about x or float precision, if at the end 
>>> we do not get
>>> code with tests, then we all lost our time.
>>>
>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>> Although I'm on a strict eMail diet I can't resist to write a short 
>>>> note:
>>>>
>>>> Did you ever play the Infocom game ``Bureaucracy, A Paranoid Fantasy''
>>>> (written by Douglas Adams)? Sometimes I think the harvesting process
>>>> is a remake of that textadventure. "Tag it with [ZORK], compress it
>>>> with KNORTZ but never with KNORZT and send it to the BFAV. Then ..."
>>>> You can't blame people for not loving bureaucracy. If the harvesting
>>>> is not working than it is the process that is flawed!
>>>>
>>>> To be a bit more positive here just a quick thought that may or may
>>>> not work:
>>>>
>>>> How about we move all the bug reports, fixes and suggestions for
>>>> enhancements to the mantis server? Then a casy study could be like 
>>>> this
>>>>
>>>> - - user creates a new report with the serverity *feature*
>>>> (=enhancement)  describes the enhancement and attaches the code. Now
>>>> the user knows that his thingy got registered somewhere and does not
>>>> silently dissapear in a mail archive....
>>>>
>>>> - - harverster looks at this entry later on, sees that no test is
>>>> included and puts this report on hold (=feedback) and adds form Z9 to
>>>> the report
>>>>
>>>> Z9:
>>>> "Your enhancement was put on hold because we decided to only accept
>>>> new enhancement if they include a minimal test. Look here for an easy
>>>> HowTo for writing unit tests and ...." (this gets automagically mailed
>>>> to the reporter)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It may work.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - - user reads the mail and now knows that somebody looked at his
>>>> stuff(!) and that there is a problem. If he cares about the thingy I
>>>> bet he will go the extra mile and provide a test.
>>>>
>>>> - - next harvester sees that there is now a test for the enhancement,
>>>> changes the status of the report to whatever, test the thingy and can
>>>> add a note that appoves or declines it
>>>>
>>>> I think when to reject or to hold a report should be briefly layed out
>>>> in some kind of policy doc that should be agreed on once (by the
>>>> harvesters?) and placed on a swiki for public notice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We said that several times, already.
>>>
>>>> A sender of a mail that shows up in the mailing list with a subject
>>>> tagged with [(ENH|FIX|BUG|GOODIE)] should get (once) an auto reply
>>>> which tells him to use mantis. This auto reply should of course
>>>> include form Z9'.
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>> Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32)
>>>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>>>> iD8DBQFBTA8rYiF2wSTEZ9gRAgPcAJ9odFI4Ncu2NSb8xAAhl/VwkpvKpgCdGajn
>>>> 4b8AQ1BBSCREfCXxCwhpheM=
>>>> =2qsb
>>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>