Hi russell

I said the same to goran by phone :) yesterday before the tempest.
But marcus is the guy that set up and signed the 3.9 roadmap with me :)
So this means that you should read the roadmap we proposed because
right now this is the best that can arrive: a better developing 
environment
for everybody :).

But for this to happen we need to have a process to make sure that
it happens not only because some people have time and do not get burnt 
while harvesting.

Stef

On 16 févr. 05, at 16:55, Russell Penney wrote:

> Goran,
>    Thank you for this; you have gone a LONG way in answering my 
> questions.
> BTW I have read this email and no others in the very long thread as I 
> didn't
> want to 'taint' my viewpoint after reading yours.
>
> I think there has been great misunderstanding, I have no idea if it is 
> on
> your or my part or both. I have reread your email and I have to say I 
> still
> see this as "your views will be overruled if it suits our purposes" 
> BUT I
> could be wrong. It happens often! :)
>
> Ah I know what the issue is; there are contradictions in what you are 
> saying
> now and previous emails by you, others in the islands group and other 
> in
> influence. Well maybe not contradictions, maybe because of the fact 
> that
> there is no place that describes the feature list that will go into 
> the next
> release of Squeak or in fact the goals of the next release. When I 
> read the
> list, I see Namespaces, Traits, Spoon and several others as accepted 
> goals
> for Squeak in the next few releases. This is coming from people I 
> associated
> with being Guides and therefore keepers of the sacred destiny. So I 
> believe
> that, maybe I shouldn't.
>
> If you have read my emails lately, I have point blank suggested that 
> the
> guides SHOULD be guiding. There is a difference between guiding and
> benevolent dictatorships however. What is the process if a large 
> proportion
> of the community disagree with the islands group? In fact where are 
> any of
> the processes we really need? Everyone talks about Debian and 
> packaging,
> they have RULES, and we do not. Fix that and you have got me backing 
> you up
> 100%.
>
> Hmmmm I have read and reread your statement. I have written and 
> re-written
> several extensions to this email. Frankly I am tired and I don’t think 
> there
> is anything I can say that will change or divert this occurrence. So I 
> will
> bow out and let whatever happens, happen. Maybe I am just being 
> negative ;)
> All I will say is PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be inclusive of this community, 
> there
> are a LOT of people making good suggestions that are not being 
> acknowledged
> by the "in" crowd (and yes I strongly believe there is one).
> Oh for those who maybe don't have English as a first language, an "in" 
> crowd
> is a clique with influence, you know that group of popular kids at 
> school
> who made it hell for us nerds :)
>
> Russell
> "You can't write Open Source with a closed mind"
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: goran.krampe at bluefish.se [mailto:goran.krampe at bluefish.se]
>> Sent: Wednesday, 16 February 2005 5:46 PM
>> To: russell.penney at tincanct.com; The general-purpose Squeak developers
>> list
>> Subject: RE: [ANN][IMPORTANT] New leadership formed!
>>
>> Hi Russell and all!
>>
>> I am replying a bit out of order here, taking the shorter ones first.
>>
>> NOTE: Btw, this is ME talking, not on behalf of the others - but I am
>> quite sure they agree with what I am saying. And we aren't suddenly
>> going to talk with one voice - we are still a part of this community 
>> as
>> individuals, just like the rest of you.
>>
>> "Russell Penney" <russell.penney at tincanct.com> wrote:
>>> I have to back Lex's comments completely on this one. These are the 
>>> sort
>> of
>>> things that REALLY make me think seriously about just forgetting 
>>> about
>>> Squeak and moving on.
>>
>> I will reply to Lex post shortly.
>>
>>> I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but I feel we are now going to have 
>>> the
>>> "in" crowds ideas forced into Squeak whether we like it or not.
>> Namespaces
>>> here we come.
>>
>> No, no, no.... "in" crowd? What is that?
>>
>> And regarding namespaces - absolutely not You are implying that the
>> decision process would be radically different now - that we would 
>> "push"
>> things onto the community like tyrants. That is not how it works - the
>> community would kick us in the butt if we pulled any stunts like that.
>> In fact, I think it is the direct opposite - now with this
>> responsibility we will take extra care because we really don't want to
>> fail your trust. Well, I am still hoping that we will earn your trust.
>>
>> So things are going to continue very, very much like before in a 
>> totally
>> open fashion discussing things on this list - but hopefully with the
>> difference that issues *do* come to conclusions and that things are
>> followed up properly and either get done or get cancelled.
>>
>> Anyone thinking that we are doing this for some kind of power trip
>> hasn't read what I wrote carefully, or I really failed in 
>> communicating
>> what this is. This is bloody painful people, not some fun power trip. 
>> ;)
>> (I gotta throw in some humour, to lighten this up a bit)
>>
>> Lots of people have been complaining over the years for a lack of 
>> "real"
>> leadership. I was the one that came up with the Guides idea in the
>> beginning, and it was my way of handling the task I was given by SqC
>> (yes, at OOPSLA waaay back) - the task of getting some kind of "board"
>> together for taking over after SqC stepping back. At that time I felt
>> that taking over the leadership in a more decisive way, like we are
>> doing now, wasn't going to work. And I still think that was the case.
>>
>> Now, after a few years we feel that it is high time to take more
>> responsibility. And that is what this is about - taking more
>> responsibility.
>>
>> I am *intent* on explaining this over and over and in as much detail 
>> as
>> you like - we really, really are committed to this - to get the Squeak
>> community better organized. That is what this is about.
>>
>>> Quite frankly if more effort was put into fixing things rather
>>> than forcing language changes to suit a small group, Squeak would be
>> much
>>> better off!
>>
>> Noone is forcing language changes onto anyone. Just because I have
>> happened to discuss my namespace/prefix implementation in parallell 
>> with
>> what has been going on, doesn't mean anything at all. In fact, the
>> *only* reason it came up was because Steph said he didn't like it (in
>> some context I can't remember) and I wanted to know why.
>>
>> I repeat, repeat, repeat, and please do believe me on this one: We are
>> not introducing ANY namespace solution in any near time. This has been
>> said repeatedly, and by Doug also. Please hear me on that one, ok? :)
>>
>> And for other changes - sure, Squeak evolves, but in the open
>> cooperative manner that we all want I dare say. AFAIK there are no big
>> language changes (or any other changes that haven't already been
>> discussed on this list prior to this) that are being planned. There is
>> NO hidden agenda. Ok?
>>
>>> How about running a poll to see how many people actually support this
>>> endeavour of yours? My guess is very few but of course tyrants don't
>> need
>>> polls, do they?
>>
>> Sure, we can run a poll - anyone is free to do that. I just want to
>> remind you that the people in this group are people doing lots and 
>> lots
>> for Squeak and have been doing so for a long time. We aren't talking
>> about a few people just jumping into this.
>>
>> We feel it is time that someone takes charge. And this is an *interim*
>> solution until SqF formation gets its stuff in place. Let me repeat
>> that: This is an *interim* solution.
>>
>>> Very annoyed
>>> Russell
>>
>> I really hope I am answering your concerns (and others) and that you
>> will reconsider and perhaps read the ANNouncement once again. This is
>> not some hostile power trip. We are doing this because we think it is 
>> a
>> good thing to do. We need a decision body, that is it.
>>
>> I will gladly answer private email or keep on replying until all your
>> questions are answered.
>>
>> regards, Göran
>
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