Hi Stef!

It was not my intention to argue about license where you are right and I 
agree completely. I wanted to stress the importance of giving a clearly 
spoken credit first to someone who make something usefull. After that 
complaining can come too. This way author will be encouraged to continue 
with work and more carefully listen to complains, otherwise many people 
will just say that it isn't worth all the troubles.

Best regards
JAnko

stéphane ducasse wrote:
> Janko
> 
> this is not my point.
> My point is tthat if we have a proliferation of license we are DEAD.
> Already with Squeak-L this is DIFFICULT to get accepted elsewhere.  
> Believe me I spent hours argumenting.
> 
> Stef
> 
> 
> On 21 juil. 05, at 11:19, Janko Mivšek wrote:
> 
> 
>> Hi Alan,
>>
>> It seems that I am first one who won't complain but congratulate  you 
>> for your work, which I think is important one for a Smalltalk  
>> community as a whole!
>>
>> Smalltalkers need to learn to give credit to those who deserve,  give 
>> a credit first and then complain! We need to encourage such a  work, 
>> not press it down but complaining. A healthy criticism is of  course 
>> needed too, but it should be such, a healthy and encouraging  one!
>>
>> These were just my few thoughts ..
>>
>> Keep going on!
>> Janko
>>
>> Alan Lovejoy wrote:
>>
>>
>>> stéphane:
>>> 1. Hernan Wilkinson: No fair pointing me at Hernan's work when a  Google
>>> search turns up nothing--especially since there's no way I can  
>>> travel from
>>> California to Europe any time soon.  So tell me more.
>>> 2. The Chronos License: In case no one's noticed, the current  
>>> version of the
>>> license also forbids any commercial use.  Of course, I'll be  
>>> removing that
>>> restriction once I've completed the documentation, implemented  leap 
>>> seconds,
>>> and completed a final beta period.  ETA of Release 1.0 is no later  
>>> than the
>>> end of the year (hey, I have a full time job that doesn't involve  
>>> Smalltalk
>>> coding.)
>>> When Release 1.0 is published, I will be revising the license.   The 
>>> revision
>>> will certainly remove the restriction against commercial use, but  
>>> there's no
>>> reason I couldn't make other changes also at that time, should I  become
>>> convinced that I should do so.  What I'm trying to say is that  
>>> there's time
>>> for those of you who strongly object to the "no porting outside of
>>> Smalltalk" clause to convince me to change my mind.
>>> However, at this point I've heard from exactly four people who  possibly
>>> object. One of them recently wrote me for permission to port to a  
>>> particular
>>> non-Smalltalk programming language--which I have granted in  writing 
>>> (the
>>> letter's in the mail as of today.) Whether that addresses his  
>>> objection or
>>> not he hasn't said.  I'm counting Howard Stearns as one of the four,
>>> although all he said was  "You may have trademark issues in  addition 
>>> to the
>>> license controversy," which doesn't actually make his opinion on  the 
>>> matter
>>> explicit.  So perhaps there are only two people who object:  Andreas 
>>> Raab and
>>> Stéphane Ducasse.
>>> Nevertheless, I feel the objections raise significant issues that  
>>> deserve
>>> further discussion--and I don't mean just in the context of  Chronos. 
>>> The
>>> issues are much larger than that.  I don't want any such  discussion 
>>> to focus
>>> on Chronos per se--partly because it deserves to be a generic  
>>> discussion,
>>> and partly because I'm really trying to avoid overly publicizing  
>>> Chronos at
>>> this time (it's not done yet.) At this time, I'd prefer that  Chronos 
>>> only be
>>> seriously used by those for whom date/time computations are of high
>>> interest--and even then, only for purposes of evaluation. That's  why my
>>> initial post said it was a "low key announcement."
>>> So, given the subject of this thread, I'm going to close without  saying
>>> anything further right now, but will post a new topic where the  general
>>> licensing issues can be discussed (although not today--I have  other 
>>> business
>>> that must be attended to.)  Of course, others are welcome to start  
>>> such a
>>> topic on their own, should they be so inclined.
>>> --Alan
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>>> [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf  Of 
>>> stéphane
>>> ducasse
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 2:10 AM
>>> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>>> Subject: Re: Chronos
>>> But alan
>>> why do not you provide it as MIT and you can still port it to Java
>>> and sell it? I know that this is naive but
>>> when I see the hell of the licenses around and got systematically
>>> bitten by it.
>>> I think that in squeak we should have MIT and Squeak-L: look at
>>> Squeaksource, smallwiki, seaside, croquet, tweak.....
>>> the new network rewrite, compiler....will all be like that. Else I
>>> think that people should not really use your package.
>>> By the way you will be interested by the forthcoming talk at esug
>>> about another time package developed by hernan wilkinson.
>>> It seems that their package will be open too, so may be it would be
>>> good to see how to produce the best of your packages.
>>> Or at least have a look.
>>> Stef
>>> On 20 juil. 05, at 4:05, Alan Lovejoy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian Rice [water at tunes.org] napical:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Eek! That means I can't port it to Slate (http://slate.tunes.org/).
>>>>> What's the point of that?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 19, 2005, at 5:06 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Looks interesting, but I sure hope you'll get your licensing terms
>>>>> in order. In particular this:
>>>>>
>>>>>    "4. You must agree not to port or translate Chronos into any
>>>>> programming language whose syntax, semantics and computational
>>>>> model are not substantially compliant to the ANSI Smalltalk
>>>>> Language Specification.  Porting Chronos to non-Smalltalk
>>>>> programming languages is strictly prohibited.  However, you are
>>>>> welcome to enter into negotiations with the copyright owner for
>>>>> permission to port Chronos to non-Smalltalk programming languages.
>>>>> In some cases, permission may be granted at no cost or other
>>>>> encumberance."
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless you are trying to find out whether anyone actually reads the
>>>>> license (in which case you've earned yourself a pat on the back for
>>>>> adding a really creative little clause to your license ;-) I think
>>>>> you should seriously rethink the attitude express by this clause.
>>>>> Surely you realize that niche languages like Smalltalk would be
>>>>> hurt more than other systems if everybody would pick up this
>>>>> attitude and have do-not-port-to-languages-i-don't-like clauses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>  - Andreas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Calm down guys.
>>>>
>>>> Firstly, permit me to call your attention to the following two
>>>> sentences of
>>>> the license:
>>>>
>>>> "However, you are welcome to enter into negotiations with the
>>>> copyright
>>>> owner for  permission to port Chronos to non-Smalltalk programming
>>>> languages.  In some cases, permission may be granted at no cost or
>>>> other
>>>> encumberance."
>>>>
>>>> Of course, the license says nothing that specifies the basis on
>>>> which I
>>>> would decide whether or not to grant permission to port.  So let me
>>>> state it
>>>> here:  Although Andreas is partially correct that one of my
>>>> motivations is
>>>> to deny the functionality of Chronos to be ported to certain other
>>>> languages
>>>> because of my partisan dislike of the languages preferred by the
>>>> Curly-Braced Horde, that's not the primary motivation.  The primary
>>>> motivation is money.  I want to preserve my right to port Chronos  to a
>>>> widely-used language (e.g., Java) and sell it for money.  That
>>>> motivation is
>>>> not operative in the case of languages such as Slate, Self or
>>>> Haskell, and
>>>> so I would grant permission for a port to such languages without
>>>> hesitation.
>>>>
>>>> However, because I want to be able to say that no one has
>>>> permission to port
>>>> who was not given such permission in writing, you must obtain  written
>>>> permission.  If Brian is serious about porting Chronos to Slate, he
>>>> should
>>>> send me his contact details, and I will send him porting  permission in
>>>> writing.
>>>>
>>>> --Alan
>>>>