Hi

>
> In general I'm ok just browsing the source code, but I do get upset 
> when someone doesn't even bother to add a class comment. I mean, 
> really. How long does it take to add two or three sentences? A few 
> sentences, that's all I'm asking. A handful of words can save me so 
> much time.
>
> Sometimes, when I'm working with a new framework, it can be hard to 
> find the door in. Once I find the door, I'm golden. Maybe there are 
> tricks to moving through the source code that I don't know (hey, maybe 
> they should be documented somewhere). But, it really frustrates me 
> when I can't even find the door.
we can browse tests too !  which is useful...  actually I think test 
code of a class should be "displayed"  or at least accessible directly 
from the browser. Me, I just added test classes related to a class in 
the comment pane of OB so that it can be accessible with cmd+b.

I also waiting to see Services Romain are doing because I think that 
could really enhance ergonomy.

but I agree that just minimum class comments would be cool. But I 
imagine programmer dislike to do that ;)
Maybe we could have a team of commentors ? :) (??)
>
> I think there are a couple of other barriers to Squeak in particular. 
> I think the user interface is a huge one. Let's just say, the UI for 
> 3.8 seems a bit...how should I say it...aesthetically challenged. 3.9 
> looks like it will be a big step forward, but it's still not great.
agree...  except I really like 3.9... but I guess I'm used to the 
smalltalk environment now so...

> Also, I  hate being isolated from the rest of my desktop. I'm a mac 
> user. I like my mac. I like my mac apps. I wish Smalltalk could be 
> part of that environment. Visual Works gets a few points here. At 
> least it looks like a native interface (Though, the UI doesn't behave 
> in a consistently native manner--which can actually be more annoying 
> sometimes. And it doesn't run on intel macs yet.).
I felt the same first, but now I like the one big windows containing all 
my squeak windows (now that I can manage them).
wxWidget will probably go in the direction you want (I don't know for mac).
> When I started learning Smalltalk, I originally tried squeak, moved to 
> VisualWorks because of the UI issues, then moved back to squeak to get 
> access to newer versions of SeaSide. 
same ;) and to get access to open source too !
Actually, I tried recently VW again but this time I prefered the look 
and feel of squeak (3.9)
> Once I made it over the initial learning curve, I discovered that I 
> really like squeak (except for being isolated from the rest of my 
> desktop--I still don't like that).  I've heard at least one other 
> person on this list describe similar experiences. I wonder how common 
> it is? 
this is really common !

First of all, this is important to have a developper image I think, 
because an "education" version may look too much as a toy for "serious" 
people (and programming is serious :) ).  And maybe derive a newcomer 
developer image configured in a way it makes all a bit more accessible 
(one browser, some tutorial inside, monticello configured...). I'm using 
the DEVInstaller class Torsten sent...

After we might need good tutorials to use the environment. I said that 
already, but it took me a long time to really understand how to browse 
the code (senders,  implementors,  halting,  writing code in the 
debuger, using the debuger, inspecting, exploring, cleaning and 
preparing the image, understanding what is an image !)...  During this 
long learning curve, I was quite often discoraged when developing 
because I was stuck really often and really quickly !  Hopefully it's 
kind magic and addicting. I just love the syntax and the dynamic 
behavior  ;)

Now it's a bit better, I still get stucked but I can solve problem even 
if it takes time... but as a langage said to be for kids, well hitting 
the walls made me think programing was just not for me. Just to say that 
good programmers will be at ease relatively quickly... but for people 
doing that for leisure it's hard ! 
Php makes people feels programmers, squeak (and smalltalk) just make you 
realize you're not really one ;)


Cédrick