Whither Squeak?
stéphane ducasse
ducasse at iam.unibe.ch
Tue May 23 11:47:29 UTC 2006
On 23 mai 06, at 01:07, Juan Vuletich wrote:
> Hello Ralph,
>
> I am the guy who tried to split Morphic in smaller packages that
> could be easily unloaded.
> I failed. I did split Morphic in 3 big packages and a few small
> ones, as you can see in Squeak 3.9. That took some work, but it can
> be done. The big problem is that Etoys was not designed as a
> separate package from the rest of the image. Writing Etoys impacted
> everywhere. Therefore we have tons dependencies on it absolutely
> everywhere. The same happens with Projects, Morphic and lots of
> other "optional" functionality.
this is why it would be good to declare 3.10 not compatible and
massively clean.
At the same time if people get spoon up and running (which I hope)
then we could reach both branches in the middle,
and have some clean packages.
> I wanted something better: To redesign those dependencies in such a
> way that just unloading the Etoys package would leave everything
> working, and to allow re-loading it back. This is easy on small
> examples, but an inmense amount of work with something like Etoys
> in Squeak 3.9. Added to this were the difficulties in publishing my
> stuff. This kind of changes generates new versions of almost all
> the packages in Squeak all the time, conflicting with any other
> thing someone could be working on, and giving a very hard time to
> MC. So despite all the help Stef gave me, I finally abandoned the
> idea.
>
> I hope to be of some help. BTW, let me thank you. Some of your
> wrintings were really important when I took my first OOP course at
> the university.
>
> Regards,
> Juan Vuletich
>
> Ps:
> For anyone who can be interested, I'm redesigning Morphic as an
> experiment. The image I'm working is a 3.7 with no Etoys, no
> Projects and a lot of Morphic removed. The Morph hierarchy was
> removed to OldMorph, and Morph is my new experiment. The TestMorph
> class is what I use to play there. It is available at http://
> www.sinectis.com.ar/u/jmvuletich/NewMorphic13.zip . Warning: This
> is really early and primitive. If anyone wants more details, I'll
> send them.
Keep doing it!
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph Johnson"
> <johnson at cs.uiuc.edu>
> To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" <squeak-
> dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 9:20 AM
> Subject: Re: Whither Squeak?
>
>
>> On 5/19/06, Cees De Groot <cdegroot at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> - Squeak 3.x is so far quite succesful in resisting us applying
>>> software engineering efforts to it. The reasons are manifold, but
>>> two
>>> major reasons are manpower and available tools, neither is going to
>>> change any time soon;
>>
>> What does this mean? Is this another way of saying "A lot of people
>> have been trying to modularize Squeak and we haven't gotten very
>> far."
>>
>> I'd like to see some of the concrete problems that rose during
>> attempts at modularization. Why is it so hard? For example, I have
>> heard that people have tried to strip Morphic out of the image, and
>> they have tried to strip MVC out of the image, and both have failed.
>> Why did it fail?
>>
>> I think this is a very interesting question, and understanding why it
>> failed will teach us a lot about software in general. If it is hard
>> to modularize code in Smalltalk, which is one of the most flexible
>> and
>> visible languages in the world, imagine the problem modularizing the
>> Linix kernel!
>>
>> Is this what you mean?
>>
>> -Ralph Johnson
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>
>
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