On 14-Oct-06, at 5:02 PM, Bill Schwab wrote:
[snip]
>
> No argument there, but some of us do things that require meeting
> expectations imposed from the outside.  To be blunt, I'd expect you
> would be glad we would like to do it using Squeak.

Oh absolutely I'd prefer to see people doing it in Squeak, no doubt  
about that at all. What I dislike intensely is that 'expectations  
imposed from the outside' bit. The pressure for stultifying,  
dehumanising unformity is .... well, I dunno. Horrible.

>
>
> =======================================
> But if you really want host-like UI, try wxSqueak. If you want
> multiple host windows with the option to draw your own within those
> windows, try using the Ffenestri code. Come on guys, if this is
> important to you, put some damn effort into it.
> =======================================
>
> At the risk of sounding a bit hostile, Jim Benson "put some damn  
> effort
> into it" and was treated horribly IMHO.

Not by me so far as I recall. I thought it was a valiant effort and I  
really liked jim's sense of humour too. After all the requests from  
people for a windows-ish UI suite I thought it was ridiculous that no- 
one amongst the requestors appeared to want to join in. I loaded it  
and tried it out  but it was more than a bit weird running a windows  
look on a RISC OS machine!

> I know it is not a popular
> statement (or at least it wasn't the last time I pointed it out), but
> there is still a glass ceiling in terms of affecting Squeak.  If you
> want people to "put some damn effort" into Squeak, the leaders  
> needs to
> "put some damn effort" into reviewing their work.  Reject it if you
> will, but do not ignore it.

Time, Bill, time. Like most of us I'm swamped most of the time. I get  
to look at a few of the things I'm interested in and that's it.  
Mostly I do VM and low level stuff so I look at that and I can't even  
cover all of that tiny area. Other people claim interest and passion  
about various aspect of UIs and I can only leave it for them to look  
at it. I wish I had time to do UI stuff since that is what I  
originally got my M.Des and IBM fellowship for.

Anyone can become a leader. If you have some combination of  
knowledge, experience, raw talent, drive, interest, persuasiveness,  
available time, charisma, money... whatever... that adds up to either  
getting stuff done yourself or getting other people to get stuff done  
to your design, spec, or wishes you can make a difference. I bet  
every person that bothers to read this list can summon up at least  
several of those qualities.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; tim at rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.