On Oct 18, 2006, at 10:21 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> Just for clarification - the m17n code *came* from Squeakland (and  
> originally from the Japanese version) and was put into 3.8. Not the  
> other way around.
>

Thanks for the correction.

> About the Tweak Etoys version, as far as I know, nobody is  
> currently working on it. It is usable, several people are building  
> stuff on top of it, but nobody works on what you could call its  
> core. It could be developed further by the community (same as  
> Tweak, for that matter), but "waiting for it to happen" is not a  
> fruitful strategy. Software does not write itself magically just yet.

I'm not advocating waiting around for Tweak Etoys.  I'm speculating  
that removing Etoys from 3.10 will not have a large impact on the  
Squeakland community (leaving aside the other distros that you  
mentioned).  Of course Tweak Etoys won't magically appear, but  
neither will Squeakland magically port itself to 3.10.  I'm simply  
saying that, given my understanding of the risks and rewards, it is  
more likely that someone will put their energy into Tweak Etoys than  
into maintaining Etoys Classic in new Squeak versions.

Juan has volunteered to remove Etoys from 3.10.  My speculations  
above are intended solely to evaluate one of the potential costs of  
Juan's proposal, namely the cost of "consciously giving up  
compatability" with Squeakland.

Josh


>
> - Bert -
>
> Am 18.10.2006 um 15:27 schrieb Josh Gargus:
>
>> This goes back to one of the opinions that Marcus expressed  
>> earlier in the thread:
>>
>> "The SqueakLand people don't use 3.9, and I am quite sure they  
>> never will"
>>
>> This rings true to me (although it would be nice to hear directly  
>> from a squeaklander).  In my understanding, it was the  
>> internationalization code in 3.8 that made it worthwhile for  
>> squeakland to undergo the difficult synchronization.  I don't  
>> think that there is anything compelling enough in 3.9 (or that has  
>> been discussed for 3.10) to justify the effort again, especially  
>> with a Tweak version of EToys not too far over the horizon.
>>
>> Josh
>>
>>
>> On Oct 18, 2006, at 8:37 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>
>>> As Juan wrote, removing Etoys from Morphic while keeping it both  
>>> loadable and functioning properly is futile.
>>>
>>> So either you leave it in, or you consciously give up  
>>> compatibility with anyone using Etoys now, like the squeakland  
>>> distribution, OLPC distribution, Smalland, the Spanish LinEx  
>>> version, the Japanese Nihongo version etc. Already synchronizing  
>>> Squeakland and 3.8 was hard, nobody has tried yet for 3.9, but  
>>> this would make it outright impossible.
>>>
>>> I'm *not* saying you should not do this, but please be aware of  
>>> the possible consequences.
>>>
>>> - Bert -
>>>
>>> Am 18.10.2006 um 14:11 schrieb jvuletich at dc.uba.ar:
>>>
>>>> Hi Giovanni,
>>>>
>>>> I don't think what you say is doable. We don't have the means to  
>>>> break all
>>>> dependencies on eToys, and at the same time keep eToys working.  
>>>> It would
>>>> need the same kind of work as to make it unloadable and loadable  
>>>> back.
>>>>
>>>> When I realized how much refactoring is needed to do that, I  
>>>> stopped the
>>>> MorphicSplitters effort and quited as the Morphic Steward.
>>>>
>>>> What I propose can be done. I did it for 3.7. You can download  
>>>> it from
>>>> http://www.jvuletich.org/Squeak/EToysFreeMorphic/ 
>>>> EtoysFreeMorphic.html . I
>>>> believe Pavel did something similar (although I haven't looked  
>>>> at it.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I'd like to be proven wrong. Are you volunteering?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>
>>>>> When resource is scare, the smarter come out ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> How is big etoys?
>>>>> And How is deeply integrated in Squeak?
>>>>>
>>>>> If Etoy is not so big (as I remembered), we can simply start to  
>>>>> "cut its
>>>>> wires" from Morphic and let it aging around.
>>>>> We can start creating a mechanism to deprecate some methods.
>>>>> By the way the deprecation engine seems to me very important to  
>>>>> do.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can do this thing with less then 8 hours of work in my own  
>>>>> opinion,
>>>>> I suggest to rethink our apprach and to adopt a "Panta  
>>>>> Rei" (verything
>>>>> changes - the philosophy of Heraclitus).
>>>>> We should start to plan the new Squeak version WITHOUT throwing  
>>>>> away the
>>>>> bad
>>>>> things.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can start taking bad thing alone in a room, putting heavy  
>>>>> doors in it,
>>>>> and then
>>>>> prohibing them to exit :)
>>>>>
>>>>> The other developers will start stopping using EToy in a smooth  
>>>>> way.
>>>>>
>>>>> After a while we can think how to dismiss them... or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my own opinion frequently Squeak home change, so the problem  
>>>>> will solve
>>>>> smootly without so much pain.
>>>>> Let's discuss on this approach.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/18/06, Juan Vuletich <jvuletich at dc.uba.ar> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, this seems a good time to remove eToys from the official  
>>>>>> release. I
>>>>>> can team with Pavel and Stef (and any other volunteer) to do  
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, it will take some 20 or 30 hours of work, and I think  
>>>>>> we need
>>>>>> to know if this will be adopted, otherwise I won't spend time  
>>>>>> on it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess the Board could lead, and make a decision, or enlight  
>>>>>> me about
>>>>>> the decision process for issues like this one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marcus Denker wrote:
>>>>>>> The SqueakLand people don't use 3.9, and I am quite sure they  
>>>>>>> never
>>>>>> will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Etoys 1 is past live-cycle. There is 3.8/OLPC which is a cool  
>>>>>>> Etoys
>>>>>>> image for eToys1.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the future, there needs to be a new eToys2 that is  
>>>>>>> maintainable.
>>>>>>> There is a very cool demo of a next-gen eToys based on Tweak.
>>>>>>> That seems, to me, much more the thing to take a look at for the
>>>>>> future
>>>>>>> eToy system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        Marcus
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> "Just Design It" -- GG
>>>>> Software Architect
>>>>> http://www.objectsroot.com/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>