goran at krampe.se wrote:
> Hi folks!
> 
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Rollandin?= <lecteur at zogotounga.net> wrote:
>> this is utter nonsense. I just don't understand where we are going here. 
>>    why destroy Squeak ?
> 
> Ok, I have for various reasons decided to drop out of this discussion.
> 
> I don't think I will be able to make my arguments and views any more
> clear than the "nonsense" I have produced so far, and since I seem to be
> the only one publically supporting Juan (perhaps there were a few more)
> I am clearly outnumbered. And I don't feel encouraged to keep discussing
> it this particular way, no - I don't know why we should destroy Squeak
> btw.
> 
> And I should be doing other things anyway. ;)
> 
> The rest of squeak-dev will simply have to (and the board IMHO) figure
> this one out.
> 
> regards, Göran
> 
> PS. I am kinda tired of the fact that hardly any change can be proposed
> in this community without having tons of arguments raised against it.
> Sure, this particular case is harder to judge - but the fact remains,
> how can we keep all the Juans out there interested if they only meet
> resistance when offering their time and energy? Sure, the medicine does
> not taste good - dumping eToys hurts, I know that. But this problem is
> generic. And no, don't bother replying to me specifically about this
> because I don't have the energy to discuss anything right now.

Hello All,

I lurk most of the time but have played with Squeak and been on the list 
a long time. :)

I too would love to see Juan's Morphic in Pavel's image.

It has already been expressly stated that those who use eToys do not use 
the 3.9+ images. So the bug fixes, improvements, etc to eToys do not 
occur in 3.9 but in the Squeakland image. So those who want eToys truly 
will want the Squeakland image.

I cannot verify this but it would naively seem that there is already a 
divergence between eToys in Squeakland and eToys in the main image. I 
believe that divergence will only increase. I presume things change with 
regard to eToys and potentially Morphic in the Squeakland version which 
do not make to the 3.9 image. I could be wrong. But unless someone makes 
the effort to track both and insure that those things get brought back 
to 3.9+ then they are lost to the 3.9+ users. It would seem this is 
already the case.

It seems that the fact is that if you want eToys don't use 3.9+. Use the 
Squeakland image.

Pavel and Juan have done nothing to hurt or harm Squeak. What people can 
do with Squeak only increased not decreased.

We already have image forks. Lots of them. People already pick which 
image they want. Every release is technically to a certain extent a fork 
and is used as such by people. There are people here who use a 3.7 
image, some a 3.8.1 image, some the 3.9 image, some the new Developers 
image, the Squeakland image, the Pier image, the Seaside image, etc.

If Squeakland's image has changes to Morphic and eToys that are not in 
the 3.9+ image, then we no longer truly have a "Full image" because what 
was once considered a part of that image is no longer present. It would 
seem the only route to such an image is to either port the changes from 
one to the other. Which direction is easier I can't say.

But no one to my knowledge has formulated such a plan nor has stepped up 
to the plate to do it.

So it seems to me that the pro eToys side is a vote for the status quo, 
because their is no one doing anything to actively pursue Morphic and 
eToy maintenance current with Squeakland. On the cleaner Morphic and 
smaller image side we have some people voting with their time and effort.

I am not trying to offend anyone and my apologies if I do so, it is most 
definitely not my intent. Nor am I attempting to pressure anyone to put 
their time, effort or money to do anything.

I am explicitly encouraging those who have stepped out to express a 
vision and a plan with time and effort to pursue such. If there were 
someone equally passionate about cleaning Morphic and eToys and bringing 
them current with the current state of the art Morphic and eToys and had 
a plan to do something. I would gladly cheer them on too.

I would truly love to see Squeak to have build-up-able images as opposed 
to the distribute all and remove philosophy. And I would love to see 
some pre-built images which target certain user groups, eToys, business 
apps, web server, etc.

I believe Spoon, Pavel & Juan, offer hope for such a future.

Squeak is a diverse community. Lets build it up not bring it down.

A small image with Morphic 3 may be the best future eToys 2+ can have. 
They are not mutually exclusive. It may be easier for a team to pick up 
the ball to implement a clean eToys on top of Morphic 3. I don't think 
Juan or Göran or anyone would be opposed.

Any way I am well over my 2cents. And I just saw a plethora of messages 
flood my Squeak mailbox since I started this message.

Trying to encourage.

Jimmie