Thoughts from an outsider

Rich Warren rwmlist at gmail.com
Tue Sep 5 05:44:44 UTC 2006


On Sep 4, 2006, at 12:13 AM, J J wrote:

>
>
>
>> From: Rich Warren <rwmlist at gmail.com>
>> Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list<squeak- 
>> dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list<squeak- 
>> dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>> Subject: Re: Thoughts from an outsider
>> Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 21:25:18 -1000
>>
>> I'm not sure what this has to do with isolation from the rest of  
>> the  desktop. Let me be clear, I wasn't talking about developing/ 
>> coding  issues, I was talking about using the UI.
>>
>> While I'm coding, I inevitably need to check my e-mail, browse  
>> web  pages, whatever (as research, of course--I'm not just  
>> playing  around). I want to use those (and other tools) on my mac.  
>> Having the  Squeak UI isolated from my OS UI makes rapid shuffling  
>> between  browser windows and native OS tools more difficult than  
>> is absolutely  necessary (at least for the way I typically work).
>>
>> Also, having a separate UI means I need to learn two UIs. I have  
>> to  constantly shift between the UIs. I have to maintain separate  
>> mental  lists of efficiency tips for each UI. I have to remember  
>> which  keystrokes go with which environment. Again, more work than  
>> is  strictly necessary.
>>
>> -Rich-
>>
>
> Well what I meant was working in a smalltalk environment is like
> developing your next app from within the app you are building.
> So I think you would feel the same isolation if you could develop
> from inside of your web browser for example.

No. My web browser is integrated into my desktop environment, so I  
can rapidly switch between programs. This lets me leverage any tool  
on my system in a tightly integrated way.  I actually have done some  
seaside development from inside my web browser, and I didn't feel the  
same sense of isolation from the desktop (though I have a certain  
amount of isolation from the squeak environment in those cases).

I really don't see how development styles relates to the issue of  
feeling isolated from the OS. They seem like completely different  
issues in my mind. One of the things I love about Smalltalk is the  
way applications are built. When I do strictly Mac work, I'll often  
use FScript as a support tool, since it helps me capture a similar  
feeling.

Or, to put it another way, when I develop in VisualWorks (on my old  
mac, it still doesn't run on my new mac, which makes me sad), I don't  
feel as isolated from my OS. A little bit, since the UI doesn't  
function in a 100% native manner.  In Ambri Smalltalk, I don't feel  
isolated at all. In all three cases (Squeak, Visualworks, and Ambri),  
I am using the same style and techniques to develop the code. Squeak  
is the only one which makes me feel isolated from my desktop .

What I have been trying to describe is strictly a Squeak UI issue. It  
has nothing to do with Smalltalk in general.

Just to bring this full circle. Now that I've been using Squeak for a  
while, I've grown used to it's UI. I find that using QuickSilver, I  
can still pop out of a full-screen Squeak session with just a few  
keystrokes, check the email message that relates to the problem at  
hand, do a little web research on the topic, then slip right back  
into Squeak. But this involved bending my normal workflow around  
Squeak (where, ideally, Squeak would just slip transparently into my  
regular workflow).  Even if Visualworks was running on intel macs, I  
would probably keep coding in Squeak. However, the UI was a real  
barrier to entry, and it can drive off new users (which was my  
original point).

-Rich-



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