Hi!

(Hmmm, odd, this email had a gmane address and not squeak-dev...)

Sorry for the longish reply but hey:

Craig Latta wrote:
> Hi--
> 
>      Andreas writes:
> 
>  > 3.11 has lost *all* visibility to me. I didn't know whether it had
>  > even started because there was nothing on the server, there were no
>  > announcements on this list, so how would people know?
> 
>      Göran responds:
> 
>  > IMHO this has more to do with our current board and its lack of...
>  > communication.
> 
>      It's been quite a while since you've said anything to me on the 
> #squeak channel on IRC, and I'm there most days. Given your current 
> comments, this seems odd to me.

I am mainly referring to "official" communication, which means 
squeak-dev in my book.

>      While I can't always read all of squeak-dev every day, I do watch 
> the meetings notes threads for responses. I haven't seen any for several 
> cycles. I encourage everyone to let loose there. :)  I also look forward 
> to when we have a tenable way for people to send meeting agenda item 
> suggestions to us.

I have had much less time than usual to discuss/track things. Otherwise 
I might have commented on this fact earlier.

>  > Sure, I just skimmed meeting notes posted...
> 
>      Indeed, the meeting notes are the primary way we communicate with 
> the community. They exist because, currently, I seem to be the only one 
> who can spare the time to write them. Even sparing that time is 
> nontrivial, so if someone would like to volunteer to make them more 
> prominent, please contact me. I encourage anyone who chooses to spend 
> significant time complaining to consider spending at least some of that 
> time being on the leadership team instead.

Hehe, well, I do think I am pulling my share in this community anyway 
and also do think we who are not on the board are allowed to "complain". 
:). And yes, I have considered it.

>  > ...and AFAICT there was a motion back in july:
>  >
>  > "Motion: Spoon will be basis of a R4 and 3.x will continue as planned
>  > in 3.11 proposal as long as people want to maintain it. (Passed
>  > unanimously) "
>  >
>  > ...but I can't say that the community is very AWARE of this and what
>  > it means. So either the team is to "blame" for not speaking up or the
>  > board is to blame for not showing the official support.
> 
>      The 3.11 team has the full support of the leadership team. The 
> leadership team's understanding is that the 3.11 team (like all teams) 
> would take responsibility for their task and its visibility. The primary 
> task of the leadership team is to delegate. Again, those who prefer a 
> different mandate for the leadership team should run for election.

I would gladly have seen some kind of ANN to this effect and not just a 
a few fuzzy lines hidden in meeting notes. I mean, we are talking about 
an *assigned Team for the next release*! Kinda important don't you think?

But considering the above being an official standpoint I will from now 
on pester the 3.11 team instead about *its* visibility. :)

>  > Let me also YET AGAIN point to the team table on squeak.org:
>  >
>  >     http://www.squeak.org/Community/Teams/
>  >
>  > ...
>  >
>  > It seems I have pointed this out a THOUSAND times and nothing is
>  > happening.
> 
>      The last time you said nothing was happening, I sat with you live 
> on IRC and edited that table until you said you were satisfied with it. 

I can't imagine having said that I am "satisfied with it", see below 
where I dug out the probable event from IRC logs.

> Apparently you misspoke, or I misunderstood you to be satisfied.

What has my satisfaction to do with total errors in the table anyway? 
AFAIK that discussion centered around the *Team model*, although errors 
in the table was also discussed. And you made some changes which I 
didn't think were good but at least you took a stand and made it reflect 
what you think and not what I thought when I wrote it originally. Fine.

> Regardless, something did happen, and it is false to say that nothing 
> happened.

I am not sure something "did happen" with the actual table, or did it?

> A few minutes ago I tried to login to edit that page, and the 
> credentials I used before didn't work; I've asked Janko for new ones.
> 
>      If you are willing to point something out a thousand times, perhaps 
> you might be willing to point it out nine hundred and ninety-nine times 
> and then volunteer to do it yourself.

Why should I volunteer to maintain a table that is meant to be 
maintained by the board?

>  > If the board totally ignores this table then for god sake -
>  > delete it.
> 
>      Göran, you know full well that I am the person responsible for that 
> table. Why you choose to get upset, let months go by while being upset, 
> and then post heated tirades here rather than contact me directly about 
> it at some point during those months is quite beyond me.

I haven't been upset for months! That would be crazy. I was writing a 
post and ended up looking at the table once again (haven't looked in... 
probably months) and just realized it was *just as obsolete* as it was 
before.

Now, sure, I could have emailed the board or whatever in private - but 
what is the point? It doesn't seem to make any difference pointing it 
out on IRC so why would it be different using email?

Yes, I *am* slightly upset because it doesn't seem that you guys (the 
board) care!

You can not calim you care and then have all these errors... ok, let's 
see... there are 16 rows and of those 16 I can easily spot:

- 7 rows with coordinators that are not on the board anymore!
- No 3.11 team nor 4.0 team listed!
- About 5 teams (and probably more) that I think are dead in one way or 
the other (please correct me if I am wrong):
	-- Documentation Team
	-- I/O Stewards
	-- Modules
	-- Packages
	-- Toolbuilder
- A v3.9 team listed (eh, where did 3.10 go?) which AFAIK definitely is 
not active anymore, Stephane is hardly active in that team, right?
- The Election team that *I* am teamleader for these days is not updated 
to that effect either. ;)

And probably lots of other errors. And oh, a little search found our 
previous discussion about this page on IRC I believe:

http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/squeak/08.05.19

...so that was back in may? Please note:

- Both the Morphic team and the Documentation team was clearly mentioned 
as being deprecated during that discussion (just read it) but evidently 
you did not update the table to that effect.

- AFAIK we talked mainly about the Team *model*, and yes, you made 
changes which I didn't like. Me being satisfied? No. But sure, now it 
reflects what you think at least.

...or do you refer to a later IRC session? I can't find any.

regards, Göran