On Feb 5, 2008 10:58 PM, Matthew Fulmer <tapplek at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 09:06:58PM -0600, Sean Heber wrote:
> > I feel a little out of place commenting, as I am even less than a newbie
> > when it comes to Squeak/Smalltalk.  In fact, I've only started Squeak a
> few
> > times, poked around, and closed it in disgust and/or utter-confusion
> after
> > a time due to the overwhelming complexity (and, IMO, ugliness) of the UI
> > that hits like a brick to the face when first starting an image.
> >
> > So why am I here and why do I care?  I love the core principals of
> > Smallktalk (and Seaside!) so much that I've been subscribed to the list
> for
> > awhile just reading and watching and waiting for some sign of... I
> dunno...
> > social growth?
>
> If you like the idea but not the look of Squeak, try some of the
> more professional-looking Smalltalks. Seaside runs on most of
> them.
>
> > As an outsider looking in, what I see is a relatively closed community
> of
> > uber-experts who enjoy their exclusive membership in an exclusive club.
> > Looking past the UI and other complexities and shunning the (much
> larger)
> > outside world of file-based development feels like an unspoken hazing
> > ritual that newbies are asked to just accept blindly in order to join.
>
> I find that this mailing list is a pretty poor reflection of the
> attitudes of actual squeak users, due to the perpetual flaming
> about {license, traits, namespaces, UI} by those who are *NOT*
> doing anything about it. Come visit the IRC channel #squeak on
> freenode to talk to actual users who like working on squeak,
> chatting about most anything, and making new users feel welcome.


Sure this list isn't perfect, but people have been generally respectful and
dialog is an important part of the process. Based on the Squeak Community
page <http://www.squeak.org/Community/>, this list is a key part of the
community and is open to everyone. Feedback *is* doing something - there
exists a broad spectrum of actual Squeak developers most of whom will never
contribute to the core. Squeak has inherited Smalltalk challenges and added
a few of it's own. Some of these have been around for a long time and are
significant but in spite of them the community survives and attracts people
like Sean. That he was motivated to speak up and felt comfortable enough to
do so is a testimony to the goodness that exists here. Showing him that
other facets of the community exist is great, but we/he can handle talking
about the problems too.

Cheers,

Laurence


>
>
> > I have a hard time playing with Squeak because it feels so isolated by
> > design.  I want to make apps that fit in with my other apps.  Can I use
> > Squeak to make an OSX app that looks and acts like an OSX app, for
> example?
>
> You are correct here. Squeak is a very self-contained system,
> and it is intentionally very portable and platform-independent
> (more so than any other system I've seen, for sure). If you want
> to do native Mac apps in smalltalk, maybe try Ambrai Smalltalk.
>
> >  I honestly don't know because from what I've seen, Squeak seems to want
> to
> > be only about Squeak.  And, IMO, the core community reflects that same
> > insular attitude.  (Or vice-versa?)
>
> Come to #squeak. You'll get a much better perspective.
>
> > Just what *is* Squeak for, in the end?
>
> I'd say it is for building applications, building tools, and
> having fun, and having the support of a community that has been
> collectively doing so for 35 years. There aren't many
> communities with as many smart people as squeak has, with as
> much thought expended on how the system and users work together.
>
> --
> Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
> Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808
>
>
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