Promoting Squeak/Smalltalk

Laurence Rozier laurence.rozier at
Thu Jan 31 17:58:33 UTC 2008

On Jan 31, 2008 11:12 AM, Diego Fernández <diegof79 at> wrote:

> To me one of the issues that we have to attack to make Smalltalk more
> popular in the business arena is: isolation.
> I mean, currently Smalltalk developments are "isolated" in two ways:

This is true and you make many other good observations. Since these tend to
apply within just the world of Squeak and there exists a spectrum of funded
entities it would seem that the prospects for improving the situation are
better there. In order for that to happen some small group of people will
have to decide that it's in their collective interests to establish and
maintain a Squeak kernel. The only way for the Squeak Foundation to do this
is to convince at least 3-4 of the highly visible projects - say Squeakland,
Croquet, Seaside to commit to a common foundation. Personally, I'd rather
see the Croquet Consortium taking the lead as I believe that 3D
collaboration is the near-term future of programming and they represent the
largest group of folk with something at stake. I've made this call in the
past and gotten no response but remain confident that it will in some way
shape or form happen because the cost of doing it isn't that high relative
to the impact it could have for the primary stakeholder.



> - If you choose an Smalltalk, you can't migrate easily to another one.
> The "core" framework is more or less the same for all Smalltalks
> (collections, streams, exceptions, SUnit).
> But when you start using another things like networking, databases,
> UI... porting from one Smalltalk to another still requires a lot of
> work.
> Another issue on porting are tools for  "source code packages". For
> example the code of Aconcagua (the unit framework created at Mercap),
> is very portable: it was created on VisualAge, and them ported to work
> on GemStone, Squeak and VisualWorks.
> Camp Smalltalk Rosseta was used to port the initial version from VAST
> to Squeak and VW, but the required work was not trivial, and maintaing
> "source code packages" for each Smalltalk flavor is really tedious.
> I know that there is a Monticello package loader con VW Public Store,
> but having an open source package format with multiple smalltalks in
> mind would be nice. (Even more nice would be having an open source
> multi smalltalk versioning system... imagine how nice would be if
> SqueakSource packages, and VW Public Store packages are accessible
> from the same public repository and versioning system).
> - The integration with other tools could be really difficult
> In VisualWorks you have  tools to integrate an smalltalk application
> with the rest of the enterprise: webservices, ActiveX, JNIport.
> But in Squeak, no :(
> The webservices package seems to be unmaintained, and you have a great
> FFI support, but compared to Ruby or Python, the communication with
> systems in Java or C# requires a lot of work.
> For example, a lot of enterprises  (Banks, travel agencies, etc) uses
> JavaEE for the middle tier. But there this is a potential market for
> Seaside in the web tier: the framework is superior and more flexible
> than JSP, Ruby On Rails or PHP.  But is not easy to communicate your
> Seaside front end to the Java/C# backend. You can use and ad-hoc HTTP
> or plain socket messages, or buy a license of VW and use WebServices
> or RMI. But the immediate cost of this compared to just develop the
> web application in Java or JRuby, is difficult to justify.
> Also integration from other applications to Smalltalk is difficult (a
> nice thing of GNU Smalltalk is that you could use the VM as a library
> in C -the people in VW is working in something similar, and I think
> that St/X also have something like this).
> Thanks to this Python became more popular: Python is used as scripting
> language in a lot of games because is really easy to integrate from  C/
> C++. (for example in Linux you could make an filesystem driver using
> Python and FUSE!)
> Well that are to me aspects that we as developers can resolve, and can
> have impact on the whole community: with better integration with other
> systems, an small consultant could sell a Seaside based solution more
> easily. With tools to work on multiple smalltalks I think it would be
> less duplicated work, and more shared packages between smalltalk
> implementations.
> On Jan 30, 2008, at 4:16 AM, Damien Cassou wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Jan 29, 2008 11:45 PM, David Zmick <dz0004455 at> wrote:
> >> I have been wondering how to make smalltalk a more "popular"
> >> language,
> >
> > I can find different options:
> >
> > - distribute flyers (
> > - present Smalltalk/Squeak/Seaside
> > (
> > - help people working on the Smalltalk entry point (the dev-images,
> > the documentation...)
> > - live on #squeak irc and answer questions
> > - develop programs with Smalltalk/Seaside and advertise
> >
> > --
> > Damien Cassou
> >
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...

More information about the Squeak-dev mailing list