2008/5/22 Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de>:
> Etoys was being considered to get into Debian. Now it may be rejected,
> because an image file is not "transparent enough" (see below). It was
> suggested to discuss this issue on the debian-devel list.
>
> Do any of you have ideas how to respond? Are there perhaps other Debian
> packages that have a similar issue of accountability?
>
> And how hard would it actually be to bootstrap a fresh Squeak image from
> sources nowadays?
>
> - Bert -
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Thomas Viehmann <tv at beamnet.de>
>> Date: 21. Mai 2008 23:06:38 MESZ
>> To: "José L. Redrejo Rodríguez" <jredrejo at edu.juntaextremadura.net>
>> Cc: Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de>, ftpmaster at debian.org,
>>  holger at layer-acht.org
>> Subject: etoys_3.0.1916+svn132-1_amd64.changes (almost) REJECTED
>> Reply-To: ftpmaster at debian.org
>>
>> (OK, for technical reasons, this is not the REJECT, but there is
>> little point in delaying this mail now that I have written it.)
>>
>> Hi José, Bert, Holger,
>>
>> this is, unfortunately, the REJECT of etoys.
>> First of all, thanks Bert, Holger, José for the discussion of some of
>> the concepts. However, I am afraid that there are some fundamental
>> concerns that have not been eliminated (yet). As such I would like to
>> invite you to start a discussion on the packaging of squeak session
>> images on debian-devel at lists.debian.org. Feel free to forward this
>> mail if you consider it useful as a starting point.
>>
>> It seems to me that the method of distributing VM sessions in .image
>> files as the preferred form of modification does not match too well
>> with Debian practices of compiling packages from source and having
>> easy access to the differences between various versions of a package.
>>
>> So as far as I understand it it seems like a typical squeak image
>> cannot be bootstrapped[1] from (textual) source and that the typical
>> mode of operation is to modify some known image and distribute the
>> result. As such, the preferred form of modification is indeed the
>> image file.
>>
>> This, in my opinion, raises at least the following questions that seem
>> fundamental to me:
>>
>> - How easy should it be to figure out what is in an image?
>>  While the source code to any class seems to be available, the
>>  image is more than that. Does that matter? Should source of Debian
>>  packages be auditable and is etoys currently auditable easily
>>  enough?
>>

Of course its auditable, easy enough for one who know how to use
squeak tools: browser, inspectors and debugger.
For those who think that image (object memory state) is something
which can be expressed by source code, they are totally losing the
point.

>> - Does Debian (including the various teams that might have to take
>>  a look at your packages) want to have easy access to the
>>  differences between upstream version, one Debian revision and
>>  another? Do squeak session images provide this in a way that
>>  is acceptable to Debian?
>>

Compare the Debian installation CD with squeak image.
They are both images. They contain both: source code and binaries.
They contain non-trivial structural organization (directories/files,
some in compessed form, links e.t.c ) , which can't be expressed in
form of some source code.
So, what is the point in looking at differences between two Debian vanilla CDs?
The only thing which you can state is, that they equal or they not.
Then, when you get deeper, you can say what packages image contains,
what is their versions.
But we have nearly same model for squeak.

>> From the squeak wiki pages and your explanations it seems that what I
>> would consider at least partial solutions exist, but it seems that
>> either I am still lacking understanding of important concepts or
>> that the etoys packaging (Debian and maybe also upstream) could
>> possibly be made a bit more transparent.
>> Of course, we might find out that my difficulties with the
>> perspective of squeak images in Debian originate in misconceptions of
>> Debian packaging and maintenance that I may have. Either way, I would
>> appreciate if we could discuss this with the Debian development public
>> at large and draw on their additional expertise.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>> 1. http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/769
>> --
>> Thomas Viehmann, http://thomas.viehmann.net/
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-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.