Hi,

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 6:19 AM, Ramon Leon<ramon.leon at allresnet.com> wrote:
> +10

Minus aleph null. I win. ;-)

> Seriously, stop talking about kids, who cares, I'll be retired by the
> time they're useful.

Asking in turn, who cares about your retirement date? ;-)

Besides: isn't it a bit strange (for want of a better word) to think
about children in terms of their "useful"ness?

Seriously: I think Igor has a point. Without a solid foundation on
which to build such educational software, the latter will hardly be
sensibly possible. So, focusing on developing a solid Squeak is of
utmost importance, not only to those who are interested in building
educational software, but also for those whose interests are more
geared towards business applications.

That does not preclude, however, pursuit of such goals. They may not
be your goals, and that's entirely fine. But please don't dismiss them
as irrelevant. They aren't.

> Programming languages are tools that are
> primarily used by and useful for adults, they should be aimed at
> adults.

As far as programming languages in my understanding of common sense
(with textual representation) are concerned, you're right. There are
others. Quite a lot of children are using that LabView-based Lego
Mindstorms NXT programming environment, and you cannot say they're not
learning anything about programming there.

Squeak's approach, in the form of Etoys, takes another angle, but it
is nonetheless valid. It's an enabler. One that avoids syntax,
favouring directly manipulable objects. It's closer to the target
audience's world perception. Now is that bad? Or even irrelevant? I
don't think so.

That said, I agree that Squeak as a language has a different target
audience. But, and repeating myself, that does not preclude supporting
other kinds of programming based on that language. Squeak is also a
platform.

>  I want Smalltalk to be usable now, not at some unspecified
> time in some imaginary future where it takes over the world by getting
> kids before they've been introduced to other environments.  It's pure
> fantasy to think this'll happen, it won't.

Do you think it'll take over the world in some other way? Wow. :-)

>  This is the attitude that
> holds Squeak back and prevents anyone from taking it too seriously.
> This is why Pharo will continue to steal mind-share and Squeak will
> die.

Beg to differ... I believe that too many people exhibiting overly
negative attitudes to things they actually don't care about are rather
more problematic. No good vibes. ;-)

And no offence intended.

Best,

Michael

P.S.: Two projects based on Squeak that truly target children of all
ages (including myself) will go live today. Stay tuned. :-)