[squeak-dev] Squeak vision

Göran Krampe goran at krampe.se
Wed Jul 1 08:22:14 UTC 2009


Hi guys!

Ok, not sure where to start here but... I just *have* to respond.

Ramon Leon wrote:
>>> Seriously, stop talking about kids, who cares,

Ahum, a LOT of us do! That should be evident given the history of 
Smalltalk and Squeak. And no, I have actually personally done *very* 
little in that direction in Squeak - but I still am aware that a LOT of 
us do. And that we benefit greatly.

>>> I'll be retired by the
>>> time they're useful.

Kinda odd thing to say, but hey, fingers are fast. :)

 >>> Programming languages are tools that are
>>> primarily used by and useful for adults, they should be aimed at
>>> adults. 

...which simply is not true, well, depending on how much weight you give 
the word "primarily".

I started programming when I was 12, I furiously hacked nights through 
on my C64. Both in Basic and Assembler. And if something like eToys had 
been introduced to me I could probably have thrown myself over it much 
earlier than at 12 years of age.

AND... no, I didn't build a stock broker system (if for some kind of 
definition such a system can be labelled as "useful"). But I am pretty 
sure it was very beneficial to me in many ways. So it was very "useful" 
to me.

>>> I want Smalltalk to be usable now, not at some unspecified
>>> time in some imaginary future where it takes over the world by getting
>>> kids before they've been introduced to other environments.

Smalltalk and Squeak IS usable now. I can't see the contradiction.

>>>  It's pure
>>> fantasy to think this'll happen, it won't.

Eh... well, unless OLPC went by totally unnoticed it is quite clear that 
kids of all ages are getting more and more access to computers. And the 
lack of good tools in that age group is quite clear too, eToys and/or 
Smalltalk is not the whole story of course - but there is an important 
niche that eToys actually is filling to some extent (half million kids 
is a LOT).

 >>> This is the attitude that
>>> holds Squeak back and prevents anyone from taking it too seriously.
>>> This is why Pharo will continue to steal mind-share and Squeak will
>>> die.

I don't think THAT is the reason for Pharo stealing mindshare. Honestly.

Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> This is so short-sighted I shouldn't even respond.

I responded to show that the views of Ian and Ramon are NOT 
representative of the whole community. And I will always stand up for 
Bert :) - he has done more for Squeak than most of us will ever do.

I also think that the conflict that Ian and Ramon is "painting" is not 
really there, we can make Squeak more "modernly attractive" without 
sacrificing the vision.

And people, please keep eToys (ONE end user tool primarily for kids) and 
Squeak (the base platform) separate. The latter should support the 
development of the former - but they are not the same.

Bert wrote (lots of good stuff snipped):

> I'm glad the Squeak community is made of individuals who care for 
> different aspects of the system. Together we are creating a truly unique 
> computing environment. And fortunately, there is a new home for those 
> who cannot bear their "professional system" being marred by crayons here 
> and there. Have fun with Pharo if that's all you ever wanted from 
> Squeak. Seriously, enjoy it. Just don't bother those who think living 
> under the same roof with kids isn't all that bad.

Hehe, well put.

regards, Göran




More information about the Squeak-dev mailing list