2009/7/1 Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de>:
> On 01.07.2009, at 06:28, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>
>> 2009/7/1 Ramon Leon <ramon.leon at allresnet.com>:
>>>>
>>>> Bert, are you serious?
>>>>
>>>> Enough with the children! It's been done and redone and overdone. The
>>>> past and the future confounded. Why can't we live the present living?
>>>> You're talking about something that might (or might not) produce
>>>> engineers in the next, say, 20 years? Smalltalk will be around 50
>>>> years by then. I find it painful that our community wouldn't be a
>>>> little bit more practical, for a change..
>>>>
>>>> Right here, right now.
>>>>
>>>> Ian.
>>>>
>>>> PS: I am so sorry... I don't even have spare children to furiously
>>>> train on Squeak...
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> http://mecenia.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> +10
>>>
>>> Seriously, stop talking about kids, who cares, I'll be retired by the
>>> time they're useful.  Programming languages are tools that are
>>> primarily used by and useful for adults, they should be aimed at
>>> adults.  I want Smalltalk to be usable now, not at some unspecified
>>> time in some imaginary future where it takes over the world by getting
>>> kids before they've been introduced to other environments.  It's pure
>>> fantasy to think this'll happen, it won't.  This is the attitude that
>>> holds Squeak back and prevents anyone from taking it too seriously.
>>> This is why Pharo will continue to steal mind-share and Squeak will
>>> die.
>
> This is so short-sighted I shouldn't even respond. Most kids fortunately do
> not live on their own. They have parents and teachers. Some of those are or
> have connections to developers. We are already starting to see growing
> interest in Squeak from developers worldwide because of that. Right here,
> right now. You might notice Squeak is getting packaged into various Linux
> distributions now. You think that's fantasy?
>
>> +10.
>> Let us separate the domains:
>> 1. Squeak for developers who need a modern & sound smalltalk
>> environment which fullfills their needs and
>> 2. Squeak for teachers/children/endusers who will use a wonderfull
>> environment produced by software engineers.
>>
>> If you don't have 1st, you can't progress in 2nd, because obviously
>> developers do not like sitting in child room and pretend that they are
>> sitting in the lab.
>
>
> I came to Squeak and stuck around for more than 10 years now because it
> always felt like a project with a vision. A vision that goes way beyond the
> simple-minded "I want something like the other guys have just a little bit
> nicer". If Alan's group started with that theme 40 years ago we would not
> have Smalltalk now.
>
> Mind you, I never implied that work should stop to improve Squeak in the
> here-and-now (go back and read what I wrote). But for me every improvement
> fits into a larger context.
>

I never implied that we should drop supporting an educational software
for squeak (eToys & friends).
Just tell me: who is currently maintains eToys in Squeak 3.10.2?
If there's no-one, then wouldn't it be better to cut it out and
integrate later as a separate module/package (whatever you think is
fits for it) by people who cares?
When i come to shop to buy a bread & taking it to the cash desk, is
there anyone yelling at me, that i'm also need to pay for a bicycle,
because bread is not selling as a separate product?

Please understand me, i have nothing against eToys. But i treat eToys
as an application on Squeak platform, not as a core part of it. And i
thinking that it should play under a common rules as any other
applications do: keep it as separate package.

Othewise, how many people next time will go to this shop for buying a bread?

> Squeak is a versatile tool for everybody. I've seen professional developers
> get excited about it as much as elementary school kids, high-school
> students, and PhD candidates. It's just a simple fact that the more
> "conventional wisdom" people have acquired, the harder it gets for them to
> appreciate the beauty of Squeak (and I happily admit that making the
> programmers' UI look less ancient would go a long way to make them give a
> second look).
>

Don't you feel a loss each time another person , who at first moments
seem really intrigued by the powers & flexibility of smalltalk runs as
a hell after seeing the Squeak?
Or is there something extremely valuable in keeping it so alien to
others, that we can't change it and be more inclusive, more friendly
and more welcome to everyone?

> Being an environment for professionals and learners alike has always been a
> strong point of Squeak. There is no unresolvable tension there that I can
> see.

Right , this is not unresolvable.

> For example, the Etoys team started 2 years ago to develop a product
> that got shipped to 500 thousand users by now, soon it will be a million.
> They did that with only a handful of developers working part-time. Sticking
> to the base system version they started out with was the only option (as
> everybody who ever did serious product development can relate to). Now that
> the hot development phase is over, the changes can be folded back into
> Squeak proper.
>
> I'm glad the Squeak community is made of individuals who care for different
> aspects of the system. Together we are creating a truly unique computing
> environment. And fortunately, there is a new home for those who cannot bear
> their "professional system" being marred by crayons here and there. Have fun
> with Pharo if that's all you ever wanted from Squeak. Seriously, enjoy it.
> Just don't bother those who think living under the same roof with kids isn't
> all that bad.
>

We can live under the same roof. And i'm all for it. Just don't turn
every room in this house to be a child room.
We need a room for guests, rest room, a working room, a garage room,
and of course - a child room.


> - Bert -
>


-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.