2009/7/1 Yoshiki Ohshima <yoshiki at vpri.org>:
>  Ian, if you could spare some time to read...

Thank you for your concise but insightful pointers. Let me also make
it clear that it has nothing to do with the man. I am sure that Bert
is a great man. It was not an attack in any way. I simply have
concerns that I openly voice with the community.

>  - Bert knows a bit about small businesses in Germany, and I could
>    say he know a bit about small businesses in North America.  At
>    Impara, they shipped products done in Squeak, and he is well
>    connected some people who do products in Squeak in North America,
>    as some of his code and contribution are part of them.

Great. That would be really interesting to learn more about that.
Especially in term of deployment, localization, maintenance and
support in general. Are those open systems or close products?

>  - Bert is on board with Etoys, especially for the latest round of
>    development.  I should say that he was the main driver for the
>    latest round of development.

I've understood that.

>  - At the Viewpoints Research Institute (which is in North America
>    and with the visionary), quite a few people are paid to extend and
>    maintain Etoys.  And Bert is one of them.  Yes, we are now trying
>    to minimize the commitment and pretty much have shifted the focus
>    to the "new" things, but if you say "leaving" Squeak, it doesn't
>    click as reality.

Yes. No. Maybe. I am at distance and go back and forth on the mailing
list. It might only be a feeling? What seems clear is that they are no
longer devoted to Squeak, as they were __before__. Squeak has taken
less importance in their agenda. Isn't it true?

>  - Squeak itself has never been a "vision" from the beginning.
>    Squeak was created a (temporary) vehicle to reach a goal, and goal
>    was to make an authoring environment for children of all ages.

I understand that. Could we consider Squeak to have its own roadmap?
As a community consensus, we should be able to decide on that. The
current lack of direction clearly and beyond doubts outlines the fact
that Squeak has fallen off the radar of its previous vision. So, if
Squeak does not change, the community does and asks for something
else.

>  - I could say that Squeak left the visionary people when more people
>    in the community get only interested in "grown up" parts and
>    themselves.

Possibly. They were however at the head of the project. Doesn't it
tell you something?


2009/7/1 Juan Vuletich <juan at jvuletich.org>:
> You seem to think that the resources (i.e. programmer time) of this
> community are available for whatever the community or the leadership
> decides. This is completely wrong. The community has never hired Squeak
> programming time. Each of us is free to contribute (or not) to Squeak with
> code as we prefer. This also includes several companies, small, medium sized
> and big. Most contributors, both individuals and companies, do whatever is
> good / useful for them, and later contribute whatever might be useful for
> others.

Obviously! And this is why the community should consider elements that
will keep the community stimulated into contributing, such as, an
environment friendly to newcomers, simple contribution process, a
sense of direction, and so on. Squeak did so well in that area that it
gave us Cuis? I feel, perhaps, that I am a stranger to the community
with so little understanding.

> This is at the very heart of open source projects.

> Perhaps some of the forks suits your needs. If not, you'd better start
> learning how to make Squeak work for you (that's the whole idea of
> Smalltalk, right from the beginning). If you can not do it, and you can't
> pay for somebody to do what you need, and nobody is willing to do it, then
> perhaps Squeak is not for you.

Hardly any news there.

> If Ruby is better for you, what's the problem with using it?

Ruby is all right. It's just not Smalltalk. Squeak really gives an
edge when it comes to develop prototypes. And, yes, it's possible to
customize a lot without even writing a single word to the list for
years.

> Are you saying that small businesses in USA can not use Squeak? My employer
> is a counter example of that idea. Perhaps you'd hire people here! There are
> many seasoned squeakers who charge reasonable rates, ready to work for you.
> I'm one of them.

I am not saying anything like this. It is only according to the
reality of my business. And North America also includes Québec, for
which I am from.

> Hehe. You're saying that the visionary people, the great minds have left
> Squeak? I'm in this community since 1997. I can tell you. Many great people
> left the community. But the vast majority of them are still here after 12
> years!

Yes, you're right. I can see it too.


> Then start doing it!

Thank you for the obvious?!


Please, guys, whether you like my opinion or not, I am simply speaking
honestly about my experience, frustrations and hopes with Squeak. I
completely respect the different experience and opinion from people in
the community. But you know what Juan? How about not telling off
people when they openly talk about their experience? Then the
community could open up with each other a little bit more. I've been
silent for 8 years. You can endure a little bit of rant once every 8
years, can you?

Ian.

-- 
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/