I have no idea where the myth comes from that the look of Squeak's  
Smalltalk development tools has anything whatsoever to do with Etoys,  
but anyhow it would be a good idea to stop spreading it.

"Usability and look-and-feel" is what this thread is about so  
constructive ideas (or even better code and designs) are welcome, but  
blaming it on Etoys is just cheap.

- Bert -

On 02.07.2009, at 19:09, Sebastian Sastre wrote:

> +1 too.
>
> Credit:
> Squeak suffers from being hardly coupled with something that is  
> intentionally
> good hearted, theoretically well supported and it genuinely deserves  
> credit for
> that. But time told it was a poor design. It won't help to deny  
> reality. In
> practice it didn't work well. Is not that it was completely useless.  
> It solves a
> problem but is not the expected breakthrough. And there are reasons  
> for that.
> Make space in your mind to stop ignoring those.
>
> Price:
> The price the project (paid by its comunity) for soving that problem  
> became
> unacceptably high and that's why the current crisis happened.
>
> UI without sense:
> Squeak make countless undeniable and unjustifiable violations to UI  
> design and
> usability principles. I mean BASIC ones. Please stop rationalizing  
> on theoretic
> stuff that didn't work. Prioritize what did work (inside and outside  
> ST
> universe). Hint: there is iphone and the rest of the world. Honour  
> design
> principles or stop self lying about who can use your stuff. Decide  
> if you want
> to make software for human beings or damn engeneers/geeks.
>
> Oprtunity:
> Do less to do more. I see Squeak has proved to be extremely fertile.  
> If Squeak
> gets unbloated of features it can focus in doing less much much  
> better and
> profit from what is good at: fertile to fast implementing models.
> But today nobody want just models. Those are easy. What people wants  
> is
> convenience. Convenient interfaces with sense. So the oportunity for  
> squeak
> would be to do that in interfaces that totally rock. Is not the art  
> of the
> buttons or window borders. Is not adding features. Actually removing  
> some will
> make it better. But is a lot more than that. Smalltalkers are known  
> by its
> design capabilities? other comunities do. Hear how they think.  
> Learn. Reinvent.
>
> Sustainability:
> If a project do not have one clear mission, it will consume any  
> momentum fast
> while being unable to make rapport with any tribe to renew efforts.  
> It could had
> value to prove some theory, but in the end (today) who cares? for  
> other pruposes
> it will be invisible: #fail.
> Stop making artifacts that makes you beg for tolerance about UI (AKA
> manuals/education?) crying with colleagues becaouse people "don't  
> get it". Is
> not their fault! Instead do something that is worth to put money  
> into it.
> Something inspiring. Something worthy to talk about (with smalltalk  
> outsiders).
>
> Sorry if this sounds hard but honest feedback is more valuable than  
> water with
> sugar.
>
> sebastian
>
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>> [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] En
>> nombre de Ramon Leon
>> Enviado el: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 01:19
>> Para: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>> Asunto: Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: [squeak-dev]
>> The future of Squeak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN]
>> Pharo MIT licenseclean))
>>
>>> Bert, are you serious?
>>>
>>> Enough with the children! It's been done and redone and
>> overdone. The
>>> past and the future confounded. Why can't we live the
>> present living?
>>> You're talking about something that might (or might not) produce
>>> engineers in the next, say, 20 years? Smalltalk will be around 50
>>> years by then. I find it painful that our community wouldn't be a
>>> little bit more practical, for a change..
>>>
>>> Right here, right now.
>>>
>>> Ian.
>>>
>>> PS: I am so sorry... I don't even have spare children to furiously
>>> train on Squeak...
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://mecenia.blogspot.com/
>>
>> +10
>>
>> Seriously, stop talking about kids, who cares, I'll be retired by the
>> time they're useful.  Programming languages are tools that are
>> primarily used by and useful for adults, they should be aimed at
>> adults.  I want Smalltalk to be usable now, not at some unspecified
>> time in some imaginary future where it takes over the world by  
>> getting
>> kids before they've been introduced to other environments.  It's pure
>> fantasy to think this'll happen, it won't.  This is the attitude that
>> holds Squeak back and prevents anyone from taking it too seriously.
>> This is why Pharo will continue to steal mind-share and Squeak will
>> die.
>>
>> Ramon Leon
>> http://onsmalltalk.com
>>
>
>