On 17.03.2009, at 14:53, Göran Krampe wrote:

> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> On 17.03.2009, at 13:36, Göran Krampe wrote:
>>> Another reason is probably that I don't understand why anyone  
>>> would only want to "use" Squeak without any interest in how it is  
>>> being moved forward nor how it works inside. When you develop in  
>>> Squeak you typically invest in its future, so why on earth would  
>>> you not be considering yourself a member of the "squeak-dev"  
>>> community?
>> Good question. But when you develop in, say, Python, don't you  
>> "invest in its future"? Still, most Python users would not  
>> contribute to Python directly, right? But indirectly they do.
>
> "Contribute directly"? By developing in a language/system you  
> immediately become involved - and thus you contribute. I am fairly  
> sure that the majority of subscribers to squeak-dev have NOT their  
> developer initials inside the image - nor necessarily in any other  
> public package for Squeak. I still think they contribute.
>
> ...so what am I saying? :) I am just saying, yet another  
> mailinglist? Sure, go ahead, that is IMHO *not* the point.
>
> The point is - should we draw these lines in the sand or should we  
> perhaps draw *other* non-obvious lines or should we indeed draw them  
> at all?

Well, a line in the sand is a political statement, and I don't see how  
that would help us here. A fence otoh can help the residents feel  
secure, as long as there are enough unlocked gates in sight.

My point actually was not the new list, I just used that discussion to  
illustrate the issue I see.

The question is if we could somehow support the (potentially large)  
group of developers who just want to "use Squeak". There are many more  
Smalltalk developers using Squeak than those who subscribe to the  
mailing lists. Be it developers in a shop or students in a class, they  
have no intrinsic interest in "advancing Squeak", at least not until  
they master it.

I actually have no proposal about what to do, I just feel there is  
something missing. Sorry for the noise ...

- Bert -