Hi Bert

Thanks for your reply.

--- On Sun, 5/9/10, Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de> wrote:

> From: Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de>
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Brand new Ubuntu experience with etoys
> To: "etoys dev" <etoys-dev at squeakland.org>
> Cc: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" <squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>, "Jerome Peace" <peace_the_dreamer at yahoo.com>
> Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 3:37 AM
> On 07.05.2010, at 18:17, Jerome Peace
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Bert,
> > 
> > 
> >> I just changed the wording on the "missing plugin"
> page - is that better?
> > 
> > Ouch no. See below.
> 
> Oops. Think I had a bad quote in there. Better now?
> 

Yes. The error message has reappeared. It is directing Linux users to please install the "Etoys" package from your local distribution.

Been there. Done that. Got the tea shirt and the error message!

I did check Firefox for plugin's and the Squeak or Etoy plugin was not listed.

Then I decided I might as well ask the package center to remove Etoys.
Which it did leaving a Squeak directory behind. I had run Etoys from the educational menu and it saved some files connected to initializing the security features. Those files were still hanging around after the removal.



> >> And indeed, the distro package should register the
> plugin. Maybe it doesn't, I don't know.
> > 
> > FYI
> > 
> > The eToys blurb from their distro:
> > 
> > eToys
> > A media-rich model, simulation construction kit and
> authoring tool
> >   Installed
> > Squeak Etoys was inspired by LOGO, PARC-Smalltalk,
> Hypercard, and starLOGO. It is a media-rich authoring
> environment with a simple powerful scripted object model for
> many kinds of objects created by end-users that runs on many
> platforms, and is free and open source. It includes 2D and
> 3D graphics, images, text, particles, pres-entations,
> web-pages, videos, sound and MIDI, etc. It includes the
> ability to share desktops with other Etoy users in
> real-time, so many forms of immersive mentoring and play can
> be done over the Internet.
> > 
> > This is the Squeak image developed for the OLPC
> project.
> > 
> > Canonical does not provide updates for eToys. Some
> updates may be provided by the Ubuntu community.
> > 
> > License: Unknown    Version:
> 3.0.1916+svn132-2ubuntu1 (etoys)
> > 
> > =====
> > 
> > Above is the info from the Ubuntu Software when You
> get to eToys.
> > Note the version and the license info.
> 
> Strange, and totally outdated, yes. Etoys 4 was just
> accepted into Debian however. It should trickle down in time
> to Ubuntu.

Who would know how if/how it would get into the update stream? Does Etoys even register itself to get updated?

>I'm not sure if the plugin works in there however
> - I think José mentioned it isn't even compiled anymore in
> the CMake-based Linux VM.

The blurb does not say a plugin is downloaded. Firefox does not show a plugin in its list of them. The launch page detects the lack of plugin and gives the error message. 

So the plugin does not happen by downloading Etoys.

Is it possible to provide the plugin as a separate download package?
Urhm. That's actually two or more questions.

Is it possible for them to provide a separate plugin download if they want to?

Is it possible for squeakland to craft a separate plugin package that works in the context of what is already there?

Is squeakland willing to do so? Or under what circumstances is Squeakland willing to do so?

Who at Canonical or in the Ubuntu community would be interested is seeing this happen. That is beyond the present company corresponding here?

> 
> > After playing a bit I realized I needed to close
> firefox and try again.
> > 
> > So I did.
> > 
> > Close.
> > then
> > 
> > Firefox
> > Squeakland>Showcase>All>Musical
> Chords>launch
> > Which now sends me to the launch url.
> > Which now just shows me a blank page.
> 
> 
> Please try again. And let me know if the wording at least
> makes the intent clear.

Intent yes. Unfortunately the meaning of a communication is the result.
In the context here it will only lead to frustrated Lucid Lynx users. I am a little worried about what a frustrated lynx might do. :( I expect a lot of brick damaged crt screens. :)
> 
> > ======
> > 
> > Anyway to reiterate,
> > 
> > 1) First it should work out of the box and it does
> not. 
> > Is the plugin present?
> > What specifically is detected to determine the plugin
> is there or not on Ubuntu?
> 
> The script looks for a plugin that handles
> "application/x-squeak-source".

Ah, thank you. 
> 
> You can see all plugins by going to "about:plugins" I
> think, it might also be in the help menu.

Did.The plugin definitely did not come with the etoys installation. 
> 
> > 2) How should Squeakland help with the
> troubleshooting?
> >  IMO a specific help should be provided for
> fixing the plugin problem.
> >  It should mention the plugin problem.
> >  And Either provide a remedy for just the plugin
> problem OR
> >  direct the user to remove the Ubuntu provided
> installation. (I.E. go to where you got it and press
> REMOVE).
> >  Then direct them how to reinstall the whole
> Magila from the Squeakland distribution.
> >  Basicly do not leave a user with the need to
> make a choice they have not been given enough information to
> make.
> >  Better still help make the choice for them.
> > 
> > Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace
> 
> Well, it is really up to the distributions to package the
> software properly so it works.

As Yogi might say: "I theory, theory works. In practice, it don't." 

>Also, if the distribution's
> packages do not work, you need to file a bug report with
> them. If nobody ever complains, it won't ever get fixed.

True, but I been there done that; got little acknowledgment from the report. This time I'll keep my powder dry till I have a better idea how to get some action/reaction. Others are welcome to try. I've made detailed observations here so they can be referenced.

> Also, someone should start maintaining the Etoys and Squeak
> packages in Ubuntu. That is even happening in the Sugar
> context, but Sugar does not use the plugin.
> 
Who would be good for doing that?

> Something that we at Squeakland need to do is provide
> proper source tarballs. These would have two purposes: for
> one, interested users could then install from source to get
> the latest independent of the packaging, second, it would
> make it easier for packagers to see how it is supposed to
> work.
> 
> We do not, however, have the resources currently at
> Squeakland to build distro packages. And even if we had, it
> would still be better to put that effort into fixing the
> packages in the distributions, rather than duplicating their
> work.

Under what circumstances can the resources at squeakland be increased to accomplish this? 

As you pointed out one of the ways to increase the usefulness of the distribution is to show the way so the distributors can make proper packages. 

Right now it still seems to me that the task we are talking about here needs to be better defined.
> 
> The only short-term solution I can see is directing Linux
> users to use Etoys-To-Go, which my changed blurb now does.

Actually the changed blurb directs users away from Etoys-To-Go. It sends them to the mercy of the distributor. And brick throwing frustration.

Anyway for my current experiment I:
Asked the Ubuntu Software Center to remove their Etoys.
Went to the download page by following the plugin here link.
Pressed etoys to go.

To this Ubuntu offered to save the file or open it in the archive viewer.
I chose archive viewer.
Which gave me the option of extracting the file (it did not offer to install it as it will sometimes do)
So I now have the extracted folder and contents in a subdirectory of my home page.

At this point I have run out of things I know to do from what I have been told. So what is the next step in the installation process? Where on the squeakland sight should those directions appear?

As I remember when I went to the sight to download etoys for the 8.04 version of Ubuntu, the site figured out what kind of a computer and OS I had, offered to download the appropriate things and I ended up with both a etoys button in an education folder and programming folder, plus when I launched a project in Firefox I had the plugin installed as well.

So how do I get back to that experience? Also how despite the obstacles do I install etoys and firefox plugin on the fresh installation of 10.04 Ubuntu?


Finally, I want to acknowledge that the tone of these post is complaining. That currently is my helping role as observant bug tracker. I only get to see things from the perspective of a neophyte for a short period of time. Bert, your timely and knowledgeable responses are what keep me hopeful that both our times and energies will lead to some useful results.

Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace 

> Longer-term we need folks who build nice Etoys packages for
> Linux, Windows, Mac, and whatever else is out there. Help
> appreciated.
> 
> - Bert -
> 
>