[squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..

Frank Shearar frank.shearar at gmail.com
Thu Dec 20 20:00:49 UTC 2012


On 20 December 2012 19:52, Benoit St-Jean <bstjean at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Frank,
>
> That's another problem.
>
> Let's say I'm a newbie.
>
> I quickly download a pdf, play with Colletion examples, then Date, then
> Integer, then Stream, etc...
>
> Now, I feel like I want to experiment...
>
> Where do I get Squeak code from?
>
> Universes?  Gofer?  Monticello?  SqueakMap? Metacello?  Squeaksource?
> Squeaksource 3?  SmalltalkHub?  Via ScriptLoader?  There are sooooooooooo
> many references out on the web to "inform" you on how to get code that, no
> wonder, any newbie will give up in 5 minutes if it doesn't load...

What _should_ happen, and we're not there yet, is you go to SqueakMap
and, if you can't find a package listed there you hunt down the person
responsible and nag them until it _is_ there.

You shouldn't have know or care whether a project's hosted on
SqueakSource or SS3 or GitHub.

frank

> What I like about the Cincom Repository is that :
>
> 1) ONE repository, not many (or even worse, many ways)
> 2) the code is VisualWorks only
> 3) EVERYTHING is in one place, it's all there
> 4) process is simple : connect, load, done.
>
>
> -----------------
> Benoit St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
> (Albert Einstein)
>
> ________________________________
> From: Frank Shearar <frank.shearar at gmail.com>
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> <squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:35:19 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>
> On 20 December 2012 19:31, Chris Cunnington
> <smalltalktelevision at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2012-12-20 2:23 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:
>>
>> FYI, I did post my remarks/concerns on the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists
>> regarding this subject a year ago but it just seems like nobody read or
>> did
>> care.
>>
>> Secondly, as I said, a year ago, we should definitely have *separate* code
>> repositories for Squeak and Pharo.  I just closed Squeak 30 seconds ago,
>> being totally fed up with packages that wouldn't load...  Right now, both
>> environments are polluting the code of the other and it's nonsense...  You
>> know the kind of horror story where version 7 (Squeak) fixes version 6
>> (Pharo) that now became version 8 (Pharo again) but that will be fixed as
>> a
>> combo of version 6 and 8 for Squeak?
>>
>> Yes, I agree. It's a problem. And all the points you make are valid. And
>> this time, thank you, you came up with some examples with things examples
>> you like and would like to see. Others reading this will find that useful
>> for the process of finding a solution.
>>
>> I will say this, though. Sometimes, it's not as easy as it seems. By that
>> I
>> mean there can be a technical solution available that people do not want
>> to
>> use. They just don't like it: the interface; the experience; the process,
>> whatever. That's SqueakMap. When the SqueakMap advocate shows up the first
>> thing he will say is: "SqueakMap solves all those problems. It does all
>> that." And you know what, he has a point.
>>
>> But if people don't want to use it... You see, Benoit, the problem is less
>> about code and about something else. But smart are people thinking about
>> this. They want a solution too.
>
> I think SM's real problem is that everyone forgot about it. And when
> someone remembered it (was it Chris Muller?), it looked old and dated.
> The idea's sound, the code might need some love, but it _works_. Here,
> _today_. Not as shiny as yet another brand new idea to solve an old
> problem, maybe. Maybe it needs some love, and a touch of makeup. But
> you can go load a few packages right now into your 4.4 image.
>
> frank
>
>> Chris
>>
>> Can't we have something simple like the Cincom Public Repository ???
>>
>> Could you commit Ruby code to the CRAN (Comprehensive R Arcive Network) ?
>> No!  You know why?  Those are 2 different beasts, just like Squeak and
>> Pharo.  And seeing at which speed Pharo is moving away from "standard"
>> (for
>> lack of a better word) Smalltalk, this "problem will happen more and more
>> and more.
>>
>> How useful is Squeak if all the code available is slowly becoming
>> "Pharo-only friendly" ?
>>
>> In other words, we should setup our *own* SQUEAK ONLY repository, make
>> sure
>> people set a "platform target" (say Squeak 4.4 or 4.3) for migration (and
>> tell the project owners that they should make an effort to port their code
>> to Squeak 4.x) and start from there...
>>
>> Now, try to imagine a newbie who's trying to load  a single package (say
>> ODBC), connect to a database, select one row and experiment with
>> Smalltalk...  Oh, wait!  ScriptLoader loadFFi doesn't work! Oh wait! I
>> read
>> on the wiki that I had to compile the fields for ExternalStructure by hand
>> because of a bug...  Oh wait, the ODBCEnh contains Pharo stuff...  Oh
>> wait,
>> Package X contains references to stuff that is "Pharo only".  Oh wait,
>> I'll
>> use this other tool...  Nah, contains Pharo stuff again...  I'll then use
>> package Y then...  Oh wait, what's that Zinc stuff ?  Well, I guess you
>> get
>> the picture...
>>
>> Now, compare this with VisualWorks and the Cincom Public Repository...
>> Connect, load, done.
>>
>>
>> -----------------
>> Benoit St-Jean
>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
>> (Albert Einstein)
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Chris Cunnington <smalltalktelevision at gmail.com>
>> To: squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:06:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>>
>> On 2012-12-20 12:25 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:
>>
>> How useful...  This is the kind of stuff that makes me wanna shout!
>>
>> <complaint>
>>
>> I just installed Squeak 4.3 to migrate some code I had on an older Squeak
>> 4.x image...
>>
>> Loaded some of the tools I use, like ScriptManager to realize... That the
>> newest versions are for Pharo! With references to stuff that doesn't exist
>> in Squeak.
>>
>> In other words, the more commits to existing project in Squeaksource (or
>> anywhere else where the code used to be "Squeak friendly" and/or developed
>> for Squeak in the first place) the Pharo people do, the less and less
>> those
>> projects will work with Squeak!
>>
>> It's just as if Volkswagen would take over the manufacturing of parts for
>> Honda and would adapt all parts for THEIR engines...  If I have a Honda,
>> what can I do?  :(
>>
>> With Pharo moving away from Squeak (and most other Smalltalks in fact), if
>> we don't find a way to clearly split what is "Pharo friendly" from what is
>> "Squeak friendly" (I resisted using the word "compatible"), where are we
>> heading ???
>>
>> </complaint>
>>
>> P.S.  This is going to be a nightmare if we don't act before the Pharo
>> people have "adapted" tons of stuff to *their* environment...
>>
>> -----------------
>> Benoit St-Jean
>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
>> (Albert Einstein)
>>
>>
>> Yea, it's an interesting point. I hear you shouting, but who are you
>> shouting to? You've found a problem, and somebody™ is supposed to solve if
>> for you. Is that correct? Who?
>>
>> I'm on the Squeak Board and from my point of view, you're observation
>> would
>> be more compelling if you proposed a solution to what you've discovered.
>> If
>> you just say it's a problem and somebody™ should fix it, I'm not that
>> interested. Especially when you cannot even take the time to think of a
>> few
>> criteria of the problem that may be used to fix it.
>>
>> Here's what I can tell you. Squeak infrastructure is not responsible for
>> every project in existence. You're first solution would be to talk to the
>> maintainers of that project. None of the maintainers of ScriptManager are
>> Squeakers. Might that tell you something?
>>
>> http://www.squeaksource.com/ScriptManager
>>
>>
>> The Squeak Board is in the process of looking at this issue, though. And I
>> can say what is on the horizon. The first thing we will have is community
>> supported packages tested regularly in images in the Squeak CI server.
>> There
>> will be a list of packages, a top twenty list, say, of packages that will
>> be
>> known to be the responsibility of the community.
>>
>> Now, wouldn't it be good if there was something like SqueakMap, something
>> separate from Squeaksource and SqueakSource3, that was a Squeak-only
>> location for packages? They you'd know that you had come to the right "app
>> store". We're working on that too. But I don't think it will be SqueakMap,
>> which in my opinion has run its course. So were looking at this issue. But
>> SqueakMap is a contentious issue. Very contentious. There are those who
>> would like to put a stick of dynamite in it. And those who get extremely
>> incensed at even the thought. (Actually, even the word, in public, like I
>> just did. Counting down in ... four...three ... two...oh, look!)
>>
>> So, we're looking at that. And in the near future, say Squeak 4.5, there
>> will be better guidelines around these problems.
>>
>> You could load the same packages into the new Squeak4.3 that you loaded
>> before. If you want the latest Squeak in addition to the latest versions
>> of
>> the packages, well, then I think you may need to do some work. And when
>> the
>> infrastructure I just described is in place, there will most certainly be
>> packages that, all that new infrastructure notwithstanding, will be
>> nobody's
>> responsibility but yours and the actual package developer.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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