I agree with Hernan.  It's not Objects; it's software development in general that's hard.  Go work on a large project sometime, and witness the awesome that transpires in a large team best by *cough* process *cough*

On Feb 11, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote:

> Hi Stef,
> 
> S, stephane ducasse piše:
> 
>> Frankly I do not care about what other people are thinking.
>> OOP is a success look at Java, C#.
>> 
>> Now let us keep our energy to build better Smalltalks.
> 
> Well, after hard work it is good from time to time to make a
> retrospection and let our thoughts to think a bit broader, to look from
> a distance to our work. To see the forest and not just trees.
> 
> So such debate from time to time is certainly refreshing and needed,
> specially if it is started from a outsider's perspective. Every wise man
> listen to the opinion of others. Well, of course wisely :)
> 
> In this case I see a wise thinking about weaknesses of OO and Smalltalk
> and how to overcome it by better "best practices". For instance, the
> newcommers are asking where to find a guidelines for modeling OO domain
> models in pure OO way. In this guidelines we can emphasise above
> mentioned best practices, then author's claim that  "no one really
> understands to this day how to do them right" won't be valid much anymore.
> 
> Best regards
> Janko
> 
> 
>> Stef
>> On Feb 11, 2012, at 1:21 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi guys,
>>> 
>>> Again one interesting topic for this weekend to discuss. David Nolen, a
>>> Lisp and JavaScript guy posted in his blog an article titled Illiterate
>>> Programming [1] where he said:
>>> 
>>> "...Yet I think Smalltalk still fundamentally failed (remember this is a
>>> programming language originally designed to scale from children to
>>> adults) because *Objects are really hard* and no-one really understands
>>> to this day how to do them right...."
>>> 
>>> He links to Alan Kay post [2] back in 1998 where he talks about problems
>>> with inheritance:
>>> 
>>> "Here are a few problems in the naive inheritance systems we use today:
>>> confusions of Taxonomy and Parentage, of Specialization and Refinement,
>>> of Parts and Wholes, of Semantics and Pragmatics..."
>>> 
>>> Let we concentrate on broader "Objects are really hard and no-one really
>>> understands to this day how to do them right" claim and not merely
>>> inheritance, please.
>>> 
>>> Best regards
>>> Janko
>>> 
>>> [1] http://dosync.posterous.com/illiterate-programming
>>> [2]
>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/1998-April/009261.html
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Janko Mivšek
>>> Aida/Web
>>> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>>> http://www.aidaweb.si
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
> 
> -- 
> Janko Mivšek
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James Robertson
http://www.jarober.com
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