> On Dec 19, 2014, at 9:11 PM, Chris Cunnington <brasspen at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Dec 19, 2014, at 6:50 PM, David T. Lewis <lewis at mail.msen.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 11:06:38PM +0100, Herbert K??nig wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> Am 19.12.2014 um 22:18 schrieb Chris Muller:
>>> snip..
>>>> The audience I want to include into the Squeak community are not just
>>>> developers but "users" too.
>>> ...snip
>>> considering myself a Squeak user I theoretically see the benefits of 
>>> environments, but assume I'll rarely need them. So yes, leave them in. 
>> 
>> +1
>> 
>> I don't know how much I will make use of Environments, but from everything
>> that I have read and seen, this is a simple and intelligently designed
>> approach to the problem. I also recall that it was enthusiastically supported
>> by Andreas Raab, which to me is a very strong endorsement of the approach.
>> 
>> My sense is that Environments is 98% done. We should make every effort to
>> ensure that the last 2% gets finished, and that the Environments system is
>> put to some good use. By that I a mean a working example of using it in
>> some useful way, no matter how big or how small.
>> 
>>> Besides being helpful when using foreign libraries I too use some names 
>>> only to avoid conflict with existing classes.
>>> 
>>> Practically only this week on the newbies list two people have been 
>>> bitten by the fact that environments broke project save and this hasn't 
>>> been fixed.
>>> I remember other people stumbling over this before and I keep using 4.4 
>>> for development and only use 4.5 for deployment because I use projects 
>>> for documentation.
>> 
>> I think you are exactly right. And IIUC, the issues with project save are
>> related to a short list of issues that Levente has been identifying. Sorry
>> I don't have a link right now, but Levente has been asking for help on this
>> for quite a while. So we need to address the "Levente list" of issues and
>> get Squeak back to the point where project saving works properly.
>> 
>>> From my point of view, if we could do two things I would be happy:
>> 
>> 1) Fix the "Levente list" and get project save working. I think that's
>> the 2% that still needs to be done for Environments.
>> 
>> 2) Use environments for something. Maybe just a hello world example to
>> illustrate, or maybe something related to a real project. I don't care
>> what it is, I'd just like to have a working example that I can look at
>> for reference.
> 
> I think I’ll be able to offer a simple example sometime in January or February. 
> It’ll be a simple versioning system, nothing more complicated than an Array of Environments.  
> I’ll put different versions of SQSqueakApplication (the homepage) in individual Environments and store them in an Array. This would be an elemental versioning system. 
> Replacing SQSqueakApplication with a variable, I could switch between the versions in the Array to decide which version Altitude serves to the web. 
> 
> With a control panel I could choose which one I want. With ALClient I could push source code to the server from my desktop to be compiled in different Environments. Using Altitude’s resource system, I could run all versions on different URIs to see them simultaneously in different tabs . 
> 
> 

Let me try that last sentence again with a bit more editing.

Environments sound grand and sweeping, but I think they could have simpler uses. If I get this running, I’ll post it. 

> 
> Chris 
> 
> 
>> 
>> Probably other people will point out that more tool support is needed,
>> but personally I would be happy with just these two things.
>> 
>>> 
>>> Craigs approach seems plausible too but it's not yet main Squeak.
>> 
>> I think it is more than just plausible, it is potentially quite revolutionary.
>> But is a different set of ideas than Environments, and I don't think that
>> either one needs to exclude the other.
>> 
>> Dave
>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Herbert

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