Hi Tudor,

On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor at tudorgirba.com> wrote:

> Hi Eliot,
>
> Just a question: Could you describe the situations when you need to have
> the Transcript editable?
>
> I am not trying to provoke you,
>

my reputation preceeds me ;-)



> but to understand use cases. While working on GT I found that it is often
> possible to support the same use cases with multiple UI solutions. And
> sometimes considering alternatives leads to interesting results.
>

While I have an over-full transcript that holds progress over time, notes
etc, these could be moved to a workspace.  What I really use editablity in
the transcript for is to cut-down output.  For example, if I'm analysing
some jitted code it will get printed out in the transcript (without a lot
of retooling) and it is very convenient to cut down the often large amount
of output to focus on what I'm interested in.  Or I might be trying to fix
a bug with repeated runs and again collect relevant data (print outs of
objects or stack frames from the simulator) for use as reference points in
later runs.  Or I might collect some warnings from the Slang SMalltalk-to-C
translator.

In short, there's a lot of different kinds of data going to the transcript
and it can be useful to edit it in place instead of having to copy it
elsewhere.


> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Juan,
>>
>>     I see that your new transcript is indeed much faster but is also not
>> editable.  I wonder if it would be possible to have the best of both worlds
>> and arrange that, when active, the transcript is editable.  For example,
>> selecting the TranscriptWIndow could put it into a mode where the
>> transcript's state was imported into a more conventional editable text
>> morph, and then when the window was exited, reverted to the standard fast
>> output mode.  As you can infer I like having an editable transcript.  I can
>> do without it, because Squeak's slow transcript is indeed a PITA, but I'm
>> not sure that speed need preclude editability.
>>
>> On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:17 AM, J. Vuletich (mail lists) <
>> juanlists at jvuletich.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Folks,
>>>
>>> (below)
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Ben Coman <btc at openinworld.com>:
>>>
>>>  On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:35 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda at gmail.com
>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 7:09 AM, Ben Coman <btc at openinworld.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  From my limited experience bug hunting, calling #changed: from a
>>>>>> thread
>>>>>> other than the UI thread is a source of evil.  There are too many
>>>>>> assumptions throughout the system that the UI is single threaded.  Can
>>>>>> anyone advise me that is not a proper belief?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then that implies that a Transcript implementation where #nextPut:
>>>>>> direct
>>>>>> calls #changed:
>>>>>> is not appropriate for use with multi-threaded applications.  In
>>>>>> Pharo,
>>>>>> #changed: is only called from #stepGlobal, which is called from
>>>>>> doOneCycle:.  (This came about as a last minute bug fix before Pharo 3
>>>>>> release and maybe could use some cleanup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Separating the UI from Transcript into its own viewer might be a good
>>>>>> idea, but actually it would not solve Stef's case since his code would
>>>>>> still be running in the UI thread -- unless the viewer ran in another
>>>>>> thread, which would have its own complexities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the point about efficiency is significant. The following
>>>>>> example...
>>>>>>      Time millisecondsToRun: [ 1000 timesRepeat:  [ Transcript show:
>>>>>> 'x'
>>>>>> ] ]
>>>>>> on Squeak 4.5 --> 12749ms
>>>>>> on Pharo 50029 --> 2ms
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This better performance helped me a lot trying to understand the high
>>>>>> priority timerEventLoop being able to indiscriminately scatter
>>>>>> Transcript
>>>>>> tracing through that code.  I believe its also probably beneficial for
>>>>>> working with externally triggered semaphores and timing sensitive race
>>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So we have two mutually exclusive cases:
>>>>>> * better interactivity, poorer system performance
>>>>>> * faster system performance, worse interactivity
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which of these is broken depends on your viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Something that runs fast but is incorrect is still incorrect.  The fact
>>>>> that the transcript doesn't output until a world step is possible is a
>>>>> bug.  It forces programs that use the transcript to be rewritten in
>>>>> order
>>>>> to see transcript output.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> As a point of comparison for correctness, for the following...
>>>>
>>>>     Transcript clear.
>>>>     [   $a asciiValue to: $z asciiValue do: [ :c |
>>>>   [ 1 to: 9 do: [ :i | Transcript show: c asCharacter printString , i
>>>> printString , ' ' ] ] forkAt: 40
>>>> ].
>>>>     ] forkAt: 41
>>>>
>>>> Squeak 4.5 gives...
>>>> $a1 $a2 $a3 $a4 $a5 $a6 $a7 $a8 $a9 $b1 $b2 $b3 $b4 $b5 $b5 $c1 $c2 $c3
>>>> $c4
>>>> $c5 $c6 $c7 $c8 $c9 $d1 $d2 $d3 $d4 $d5 $d6 $d7 $d8 $d9 $d9 $e2 $g2 $h2
>>>> $h2
>>>> $i2 $k2 $k2 $l2 $n2 $n2 $o2 $o2 $r2 $s2 $t2 $u2 $u2 $v2 $x2 $y2 $z2 $z2
>>>> $b7
>>>> $f3 $e3 $e3 $g3 $j3 $h3 $i3 $k3 $k3 $m3 $n3 $p3 $p3 $q3 $o3 $s3 $t3 $t3
>>>> $u3
>>>> $v3 $x3 $y3 $z3 $b8 $f4 $e4 $e4 $g4 $h4 $i4 $k4 $l4 $m4 $m4 $n4 $r4 $q4
>>>> $o4
>>>> $o4 $s4 $w4 $u4 $u4 $v4 $y4 $y4 $z4 $z4 $f5 $j5 $j5 $g5 $i5 $k5 $l5 $l5
>>>> $m5
>>>> $m5 $n5 $q5 $o5 $s5 $s5 $t5 $u5 $u5 $x5 $y5 $z5 $f6 $f6 $h6 $h6 $g6 $g6
>>>> $k6
>>>> $p6 $m6 $r6 $r6 $n6 $o6 $s6 $s6 $w6 $u6 $x6 $x6 $e7 $f7 $j7 $h7 $h7 $i7
>>>> $l7
>>>> $l7 $k7 $m7 $m7 $q7 $n7 $n7 $o7 $t7 $w7 $w7 $u7 $v7 $x7 $z7 $z7 $e8 $e8
>>>> $h8
>>>> $g8 $i8 $i8 $l8 $k8 $k8 $m8 $q8 $n8 $n8 $s8 $t8 $w8 $y8 $y8 $u8 $x8 $z8
>>>> $f9
>>>> $f9 $e9 $h9 $h9 $g9 $p9 $p9 $k9 $r9 $r9 $m9 $n9 $n9 $o9 $t9 $t9 $w9 $v9
>>>> $u9
>>>> $u9 $z9 $x9
>>>>
>>>> Pharo 50041 gives...
>>>> $a1 $a2 $a3 $a4 $a5 $a6 $a7 $a8 $a9 $b1 $b2 $b3 $b4 $b5 $b6 $b7 $b8 $b9
>>>> $c1
>>>> $c2 $c3 $c4 $c5 $c6 $c7 $c8 $c9 $d1 $d2 $d3 $d4 $d5 $d6 $d7 $d8 $d9 $e1
>>>> $e2
>>>> $e3 $e4 $e5 $e6 $e7 $e8 $e9 $f1 $f2 $f3 $f4 $f5 $f6 $f7 $f8 $f9 $g1 $g2
>>>> $g3
>>>> $g4 $g5 $g6 $g7 $g8 $g9 $h1 $h2 $h3 $h4 $h5 $h6 $h7 $h8 $h9 $i1 $i2 $i3
>>>> $i4
>>>> $i5 $i6 $i7 $i8 $i9 $j1 $j2 $j3 $j4 $j5 $j6 $j7 $j8 $j9 $k1 $k2 $k3 $k4
>>>> $k5
>>>> $k6 $k7 $k8 $k9 $l1 $l2 $l3 $l4 $l5 $l6 $l7 $l8 $l9 $m1 $m2 $m3 $m4 $m5
>>>> $m6
>>>> $m7 $m8 $m9 $n1 $n2 $n3 $n4 $n5 $n6 $n7 $n8 $n9 $o1 $o2 $o3 $o4 $o5 $o6
>>>> $o7
>>>> $o8 $o9 $p1 $p2 $p3 $p4 $p5 $p6 $p7 $p8 $p9 $q1 $q2 $q3 $q4 $q5 $q6 $q7
>>>> $q8
>>>> $q9 $r1 $r2 $r3 $r4 $r5 $r6 $r7 $r8 $r9 $s1 $s2 $s3 $s4 $s5 $s6 $s7 $s8
>>>> $s9
>>>> $t1 $t2 $t3 $t4 $t5 $t6 $t7 $t8 $t9 $u1 $u2 $u3 $u4 $u5 $u6 $u7 $u8 $u9
>>>> $v1
>>>> $v2 $v3 $v4 $v5 $v6 $v7 $v8 $v9 $w1 $w2 $w3 $w4 $w5 $w6 $w7 $w8 $w9 $x1
>>>> $x2
>>>> $x3 $x4 $x5 $x6 $x7 $x8 $x9 $y1 $y2 $y3 $y4 $y5 $y6 $y7 $y8 $y9 $z1 $z2
>>>> $z3
>>>> $z4 $z5 $z6 $z7 $z8 $z9
>>>>
>>>> (start your comparison at $b5)
>>>>
>>>> So in one axis Pharo has improved Transcript, but we didn't notice the
>>>> significance of the use case we lost.
>>>>
>>>> cheers -ben
>>>>
>>>
>>> Please take a good look at Cuis' Transcript and consider using it.
>>>
>>> By default, the display is updated immediately, but without calling
>>> Morphic, it can even work with no UI framework at all. It does updates
>>> faster than Squeak or Visualworks:
>>>
>>>         Time millisecondsToRun: [ 1000 timesRepeat:  [ Transcript show:
>>> 'x' ] ]. 763.
>>>
>>> But if you want minimum overhead without immediate feedback:
>>>
>>>         Time millisecondsToRun: [ Transcript showOnDisplay: false. 1000
>>> timesRepeat:  [ Transcript show: 'x' ]. Transcript showOnDisplay: true ]. 1.
>>>         "As fast as Pharo"
>>>
>>> It is also thread safe, and for Ben's example:
>>>
>>> Transcript clear.
>>> [
>>>         $a asciiValue to: $z asciiValue do: [ :c |
>>>                 [ 1 to: 9 do: [ :i | Transcript show: c asCharacter
>>> printString , i printString , ' ' ] ] forkAt: 40
>>>         ].
>>> ] forkAt: 41
>>>
>>> it gives the same result as Pharo.
>>>
>>> The fact that the updates are not bound to Morphic also means that it is
>>> possible to do #show: deep in Morphic logic, without causing infinite loops
>>> or recursions, and get immediate feedback. It has proved to be a useful aid
>>> in debugging Morphic code.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> best,
>> Eliot
>>
>
>
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
>
> "Every thing has its own flow"
>



-- 
best,
Eliot
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