[squeak-dev] [Pharo-dev] Squeak and Tonel
stephane.ducasse at inria.fr
Sun Feb 17 21:33:47 UTC 2019
Contrary to you I do not wish your death.
So can you respect me?
> On 17 Feb 2019, at 22:30, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 1:00 PM ducasse <stepharo at netcourrier.com <mailto:stepharo at netcourrier.com>> wrote:
> Hi eliot
> What is common in your thread is that we always look like the super emotional, or bad guys.
> You never ask yourselves why Esteban left the VM mailing-list.
> What is common is that I discuss technical matters (difficulties in using Tonel/git, architectural issues with developing the VM) and organizational issues (Estebans' unhelpful response regarding an option in Tonel) and you immediately personalize, do not bring up a single technical issue, and then make grand pronouncements like :this is the last email I'll send you". Laughable and sad.
> And I do not see why you cannot fork Tonel to produce your own version.
> Git is about distributed projects. People do that all the time. You can take Tonel and hack it to death
> without having your hacks pushed back into Pharo and this is perfectly ok for us.
> So Esteban has the right to say no and you have the right to hack your own version.
> If you want to have some support for porting Scorch/Sista to github and loading you should ask
> but asking it more nicely.
> About the simulation of the UI, if you do not talk to us we cannot pay attention.
> I do not see why we cannot keep a package with the image level UI for the simulator.
> Now again you are talking about collaboration but you do not talk to us and you do not
> listen to us so do not expect that people are willing to spend their free time to help.
>> I had deep concerns that the pursuit of git integration would end up splitting the Pharo and Squeak communities and indeed this is now in progress. I am utterly unmotivated by the lack of cooperation, the sheer arrogance and bullying of those that say "you will move to git/tonel or else”,
> This is fun to ask Pharo not to grow up to use modern technology to manage source code under the
> premisses that Squeak cannot or will not.
> This is so funny how you state it. I will not comment more than that.
> People around are adults and they will be able to judge by themselves.
>> and considering leaving VMMaker altogether.
> If you leave VMMaker, let us know because we will port it to Github and make it work in Pharo.
> Esteban did it several times in the past. At least this will have the benefit to clarify the situation.
> I think that this is good that you tell us that you do not want to cooperate with us.
> This will have at least the impact to kick our ass and pay attention to us.
>> The only things that are keeping me interested are Ron Teitelbaum's Terf and me pursuing a PhD on register allocation in the context of Sista/Scorch with Robert Hirshfeld's group at HPI.
>> Here's the kind of crap people like Ducasse throw at me:
>> At the end of the day I will probably ask the two phds that should work on language design to use truffle or pypy
>> because let us face it we cannot work with the Pharo VM. Else we will simply have to fork it (because we do not want to have
>> to jump over cuis, newspeak, squeak code constraints and I do not what) and it will be another drama is in the pico world
>> of the “open” smalltalk VM. "
>> I am so over this crap.
> This is not a crap. I can restate what I said. Because of responsibility of a research team and creating a future for students. You know I’m not alone, I have quite some responsibility towards PhD students
> of my group and yes I cannot make them fail by construction (or produce unadequate results)
> just by imposing them to use a system with far too many constraints.
> I will not ask them to work on the openSmalltalk vm directly because this is not their responsibilities
> to have to jump over newspeak ifdef and others. A job of a PhD is to be able to brainstorm and create new ideas. Look at Stefan Marr (He is working on SOM or Truffle).
> Now you can think that I’m an asshole, arrogant, or I do not know pick what you want.
> ***I do not care***. I do not have Diva syndrome I have responsibilities towards people.
> I was discussing with some truffle experts and they told me that this is can be complex. I believe it.
> I would like to avoid pypy for obvious reasons. So what we will probably do for their PhD is to see if we can use a light version of opensmalltalk. I do not want to ask them to jump over many things that are totally useless for them all the time.
> PS: personnally I do not get why VMMaker would be the only project on earth that cannot be managed using git and Pharo.
> But for us the future is Git and we will continue to build on this infrastructure.
>> best, Eliot
> best, Eliot
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