[squeak-dev] 64 bit VM for running older images (was: A Sad Day ??? concluded)

sumi masato sumi at seagreen.ocn.ne.jp
Mon Oct 5 05:17:47 UTC 2020


Hi Dave,

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

> In general, a 32-bit image can run on a 64-bit VM (and vice versa).

I had a misunderstanding about it completely..

--
sumim

2020年10月5日(月) 8:00 David T. Lewis <lewis at mail.msen.com>:
>
> Changing the subject line because this is not related to the original
> discussion.
>
> In general, a 32-bit image can run on a 64-bit VM (and vice versa).
> An explanation is at http://squeakvm.org/squeak64/faq.html
>
> The more recent Cog and Spur VMs are more restrictive in the sense
> that we always use a 64-bit VM when running a 64-bit image, and we
> use a 32-bit VM when running a 32-bit image. The reason for this is
> that the modern VMs are optimized to provide code generation ("Cog")
> and it would be a good deal of effort to make this work on the
> various combinations image word size and VM pointer size.
>
> For the traditional interpreter VM (http://squeakvm.org/) the restriction
> is not necessary, and it is usually better to use a native 64-bit VM
> regardless of the word size of the image being run.
>
> Dave
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 05, 2020 at 04:45:17AM +0900, sumi masato wrote:
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > Oh, I assumed that there had been no 64-bit version of 3.10 VM
> > and also that 32-bit virtual images could not run on 64-bit VMs.
> >
> > Or, does it means that by building from source on current Unix-like system,
> > former VM for 32-bit VI can also be generated as 64-bit executables?
> >
> > Anyway, I'll try to build a 3.10 VM on the latest macOS by following your
> > instruction.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > --
> > sumim
> >
> > 2020-10-04 David T. Lewis <lewis at mail.msen.com>:
> >
> > > On Sun, Oct 04, 2020 at 12:07:47PM +0900, sumi masato wrote:
> > > > Hi Dave,
> > > >
> > > > Great!
> > > >
> > > > Could you build a Docker image and publish it for macOS users
> > > > who are restricted 32 bit VM by Apple also to try it easily?
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > sumim
> > >
> > > I have no experience with Docker, but if you or someone else
> > > knows how to do that, I'll be happy help if you run into any
> > > difficulty compiling the VM.
> > >
> > > I do not understand "restricted 32 bit VM by Apple" but to
> > > clarify, the Linux VM I use is a 64 bit VM running the 32-bit
> > > Squeak image. I expect this is what you would want to use if
> > > you were building a Docker image, although you can also compile
> > > the VM as a 32 bit application if needed. But I saw no problems
> > > running Trygve's image on the 64 bit VM.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > 2020-10-04 David T. Lewis <lewis at mail.msen.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > Thank you Trygve,
> > > > >
> > > > > I confirm also that the image runs very well on my Ubuntu Linux laptop
> > > > > with a VM compiled per http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6354.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dave
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Oct 03, 2020 at 07:56:43PM +0900, masato sumi wrote:
> > > > > > Dear Trygve,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I confirmed that I could launch the Loke/BabyIDE image with the
> > > included
> > > > > > SqueakVM for Windows (8.1 and 10)
> > > > > > and I could also launch it in a web browser by using the SqueakJS VM
> > > (
> > > > > > https://squeak.js.org/run ).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you very much.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > sumim
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2020-10-03 15:48 Trygve Reenskaug <trygver at ifi.uio.no>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Sumim,
> > > > > > > Thank you for your kind words.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The latest version of Loke/BabyIDE written on Squeak3.10.2 is at
> > > > > > > https://data.mendeley.com/datasets/5xxgzv7fsp/1
> > > > > > > The image is my program repository. It includes some examples of
> > > DCI
> > > > > > > programming, Ellen's Personal Programming IDE, Squeak Reverse
> > > > > Engineering
> > > > > > > (SRE), and more.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > --Trygve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 2020-10-02 20:14, masato sumi wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Trygve,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you for your very long term contribution and efforts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm very sorry that I couldn't help you at all now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm afraid, but could you please make your latest version of
> > > > > Loke/BabyIDE
> > > > > > > written on Squeak3.10.2 available for future generations of
> > > researchers
> > > > > > > and/or followers?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anyway, I think your ideas and thoughts should be passed on to
> > > future
> > > > > > > generations as faithfully as we can possible, and I myself will
> > > try to
> > > > > make
> > > > > > > sure that.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you so much and goodbye.
> > > > > > > Please take care of yourself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > sumim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2020-10-03 0:54 Trygve Reenskaug <trygver at ifi.uio.no>:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Dear all,
> > > > > > >> I need to use many words to explore why I can't understand current
> > > > > Squeak
> > > > > > >> code. I believe the reason is a profound one, and I hope some of
> > > you
> > > > > have
> > > > > > >> the patience to read about it.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Thank you for your responses to my 'A Sad Day'-message. One
> > > response
> > > > > said
> > > > > > >>  "*But please don't give up as an inventor of MVC, which has
> > > > > simplified
> > > > > > >> writing software for all of us.*
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> *We need new ideas to stabilize Smalltalk." *As to MVC, it was
> > > > > received
> > > > > > >> with acclamation when I first presented it at PARC in 1978, and
> > > people
> > > > > > >> suggested I should make it the theme of my article in the special
> > > > > Smalltalk
> > > > > > >> issue of Byte. I couldn't understand it; MVC was so simple and
> > > > > obvious that
> > > > > > >> is was not worth writing about it. Nevertheless, people seem to
> > > have
> > > > > > >> problems understanding MVC. It took me a long time before I
> > > gleaned
> > > > > what
> > > > > > >> was going on. The explanation is a deep one, rooted in our
> > > different
> > > > > mental
> > > > > > >> paradigms.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> From around 1970, I was working on Prokon, a distributed system
> > > for
> > > > > > >> managers in the shipbuilding industry:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>  Every manager has their own computer that they use for augmenting
> > > > > their
> > > > > > >> mind. The manager understands their software and ideally writes it
> > > > > > >> themselves. Managers delegate conversations with other managers to
> > > > > their
> > > > > > >> computer's M-to-M network. (Marked with a heavy black line in the
> > > > > figure).
> > > > > > >> I chose "distributed planning with central control" as my example
> > > > > project.
> > > > > > >> Each manager creates a plan for their department, using apps
> > > suited to
> > > > > > >> their particular needs. A **distributed algorithm** ensures
> > > > > consistency
> > > > > > >> across departments.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I came to PARC in 1978 and could immediately relate to the
> > > Smalltalk
> > > > > > >> image with its universe of collaborating objects. Alan's
> > > definition of
> > > > > > >> object-orientation fitted my Prokon model: "Thus its semantics
> > > are a
> > > > > bit
> > > > > > >> like having thousands and thousands of computers all hooked
> > > together
> > > > > by a
> > > > > > >> very fast network."
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> MVC prescribes a network of communicating objects. Any object can
> > > fill
> > > > > > >> one or more positions in the network as long as it has the
> > > required
> > > > > > >> behavior; their classes are irrelevant. It's so simple that it's
> > > not
> > > > > worth
> > > > > > >> writing about it.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> ====================
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The work on this post was interrupted at this point by an
> > > unexpected
> > > > > week
> > > > > > >> in hospital. It gave me quiet days of pondering the futility of
> > > what
> > > > > I am
> > > > > > >> doing and I will be terminating my memberships in the Pharo and
> > > Squeak
> > > > > > >> mailing lists. I have also deleted most of the old draft of this
> > > > > message
> > > > > > >> and will quickly conclude with two observations:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>    1.
> > > > > > >>    The Smalltalk image is a universe of communicating objects. I
> > > call
> > > > > it
> > > > > > >>    an object computer. It can be seen as the model of an entirely
> > > new
> > > > > kind of
> > > > > > >>    computer, a model on a level closer to the human mind than the
> > > von
> > > > > Neumann
> > > > > > >>    model of 1948. The new model is communication-centric and
> > > should
> > > > > supersede
> > > > > > >>    the ubiquitous CPU-centric model as soon as possible. Working
> > > out
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >>    details of this idea could make an exciting and disruptive
> > > Ph.D.
> > > > > thesis.
> > > > > > >>    2.
> > > > > > >>    Smalltalk is called a programming language. It is a curious
> > > one,
> > > > > very
> > > > > > >>    different from well-known languages like Java with their
> > > syntax and
> > > > > > >>    semantics. Smalltalk, as a programming language, does not have
> > > the
> > > > > concept
> > > > > > >>    of a program. Smalltalk, as a class-oriented language, does not
> > > > > have syntax
> > > > > > >>    for the declaration of a class. Smalltalk, as an
> > > object-oriented
> > > > > language,
> > > > > > >>    can't describe how objects collaborate to achieve a goal. You
> > > > > appear to be
> > > > > > >>    happy with this state of affairs, at least, I see no sign of
> > > > > anybody
> > > > > > >>    wanting to move on from the unfinished Smalltalk language to a
> > > > > mature
> > > > > > >>    development environment. I do not find it satisfactory and it
> > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > >>    acceptable to the intended managers populating the distributed
> > > > > system shown
> > > > > > >>    in the first picture. Consequently, I have done something
> > > about it
> > > > > as
> > > > > > >>    described in my SoSym article "*Personal Programming and the
> > > Object
> > > > > > >>    Computer.*" I am tired of being alone in my endeavors and this
> > > ends
> > > > > > >>    my work with Squeak and other Smalltalks. I wish you health and
> > > > > happiness
> > > > > > >>    wherever you happen to be.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Trygve
> > > > > > >> Personal programming and the object computer
> > > > > > >> https://doi.org/10.1007/s10270-019-00768-3
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> *The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate  to
> > > > > > >> achieve a goal. *
> > > > > > >> Trygve Reenskaug      mailto: trygver at ifi.uio.no <%
> > > > > 20trygver at ifi.uio.no>
> > > > > > >> Morgedalsvn. 5A       http://folk.uio.no/trygver/
> > > > > > >> N-0378 Oslo             http://fullOO.info
> > > > > > >> Norway                     Tel: (+47) 468 58 625
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate  to
> > > > > achieve
> > > > > > > a goal. *
> > > > > > > Trygve Reenskaug      mailto: trygver at ifi.uio.no <%
> > > > > 20trygver at ifi.uio.no>
> > > > > > > Morgedalsvn. 5A       http://folk.uio.no/trygver/
> > > > > > > N-0378 Oslo             http://fullOO.info
> > > > > > > Norway                     Tel: (+47) 468 58 625
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > sent from mobile
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > sent from mobile
>
> >
>
>


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