[squeak-dev] Default preferences

Marcel Taeumel marcel.taeumel at hpi.de
Wed Dec 8 08:30:40 UTC 2021


Hi Christoph --

> We had some internal discussions recently about this mode because I and someone else was actually preferring an "always attach to cursor" mode, which felt more intuitive to us.

Well, I play the piano with both hands. There are users that have both hands on the keyboard most of the time. Then there are users that maybe only use one hand for the keyboard, the other one for the mouse. I am not sure whether you can have both hands on the mouse. Consequently, there are different groups of users. Until now, Squeak's keyboard-only support is rather sketchy. We should work on that.

What's the benefit of attaching the window to the mouse? Resizing and positioning. One does not have to point to the window grips in order to do that. How would the user resize a window in keyboard mode? Yeah. Maybe that's the question we should answer.

If we manage to keep keyboard-based and mouse-base interaction modes separate, we might even enable that "attach tools to cursor" preference by default. Because it would not annoy the keyboard people. Just at thought.

It's not primarily about one person's "intuition" ... it's about finding balance and trade-offs.

Best,
Marcel
Am 07.12.2021 22:30:09 schrieb Thiede, Christoph <christoph.thiede at student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>:
Hi Jaromir,

> and run it from the keyboard via CTRL-d it correctly opens a Debugger NOT attached then clicking Proceed opens the next Debugger again NOT attached etc. - is this right??

Sounds wrong to me, nice catch! We should look into this.

Independently of this bug, I have one more general question for you: Does it appear rather intuitive or rather confusing for you how this preference is intended to work? Its intention is: if and only if the previous input operation was made via mouse, open the tool attached to the mouse cursor. This is meant to support users to keep with their current input device - if I was using the keyboard before, don't force me to use the mouse.
We had some internal discussions recently about this mode because I and someone else was actually preferring an "always attach to cursor" mode, which felt more intuitive to us. To you as someone who might be not yet as routine-blinded as us, what sounds more intuitive to you?

If you would like to try out the alternative mode, you could comment out the "and: [ | event | event := self currentEvent. event isMouse and: [event isMouseUp]]" send in SystemWindow >> #openAsTool by true. Looking forward to hearing your impressions! :-)


> PS: There are two "tools" groups in the preference browser, one called "Tools "and the other one "tools" - is it intentional?

This would be very welcome! We should also unify the Uppercase/lowercase of all categories.

Best,
Christoph


Von: Squeak-dev <squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org> im Auftrag von mail at jaromir.net <mail at jaromir.net>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Dezember 2021 18:41 Uhr
An: squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org; Taeumel, Marcel
Betreff: Re: [squeak-dev] Default preferences
 
Hi Marcel,

>
> >No - when I run the example via CTRL-SHIFT-d (start the Debugger on it) the Debugger opens not attached but the subsequent Debugger(s) when hitting Proceed start attached -> inconsistent (but not erratic)
>
> Well, please read the preference's description again. Only mouse interaction is affected. So, the behavior you describe is exactly as intended. We do not want to force the use into a bi-manual interaction style if they try to primarily use the keyboard.

Yes, this is exactly what I'd expect but is not happening (or I'm still missing something) - if you take the example:

self halt. self halt. self halt

and run it from the keyboard via CTRL-d it correctly opens a Debugger NOT attached then clicking Proceed opens the next Debugger again NOT attached etc. - is this right??

Because: if you run the same example from the keyboard via CTRL-D it opens the first Debugger not attached BUT after clicking Proceed it opens the next Debugger window ATTACHED and after clicking Proceed the next one is again attached etc.

This inconsistency confuses me; I very often start evaluation by CTRL-d or CTRL-D :)

I'd expect the Debugger's the behavior after clicking Proceed should be consistent regardless whether I initiated the evaluation from the keyboard via CTRL-d or CTRL-D. I.e. either clicking Proceed should always attach the next Debugger window or never... (I'd personally prefer if the small/simple Debugger windows always opened NOT attached)

Apologies for such a long message.

Thanks a lot,

PS: There are two "tools" groups in the preference browser, one called "Tools "and the other one "tools" - is it intentional?

~~~
^[^    Jaromir

Sent from Squeak Inbox Talk

On 2021-12-07T12:21:45+01:00, marcel.taeumel at hpi.de wrote:

> Hi Jaromir --
>
>  >No – when I run the example via CTRL-SHIFT-d (start the Debugger on it) the Debugger opens not attached but the subsequent Debugger(s) when hitting Proceed start attached -> inconsistent (but not erratic)
>
> Well, please read the preference's description again. Only mouse interaction is affected. So, the behavior you describe is exactly as intended. We do not want to force the use into a bi-manual interaction style if they try to primarily use the keyboard.
>
> Best,
> Marcel
> Am 07.12.2021 11:56:45 schrieb Jaromir Matas <mail at jaromir.net>:
> Checked already 😊
> Yes – improved for do-it via CTRL-d: now all invocations when pressing Proceed go not attached to the mouse -> consistent
> No – when I run the example via CTRL-SHIFT-d (start the Debugger on it) the Debugger opens not attached but the subsequent Debugger(s) when hitting Proceed start attached -> inconsistent (but not erratic)
> Thanks!
>  
> From: Marcel Taeumel [mailto:marcel.taeumel at hpi.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2021 11:52
> To: squeak-dev [mailto:squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org]
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Default preferences
>  
> Hi Jaromir --
>  
> Please check whether Morphic-mt.1816 (Trunk) improves the situation. :-)
>  
> Best,
> Marcel
> Am 07.12.2021 11:05:36 schrieb Jaromir Matas <mail at jaromir.net>:
> I’ve just tested the likelihood: the first CTRL-d opens the Debugger not attached and then pressing Proceed has almost 50% chance to either open attached to the mouse or not attached.
>  
> From: Marcel Taeumel [mailto:marcel.taeumel at hpi.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2021 10:59
> To: squeak-dev [mailto:squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org]
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Default preferences
>  
> Hi Jaromir --
>  
> Yes, there are some cases where the mouse interaction does not lead to the tool being attached. No, I am not aware of a situation where a keyboard interaction does that. What's your feeling? Does it work like 95% of the time?
>  
> > I think it happened with some dialogues as well but can’t remember now.
>  
> Dialog windows should never attach to the mouse cursor. See SystemWindow >> #openAsTool to better understand the mechanics of that preference. It relies on the dynamically scoped #currentEvent, which is not bullet proof. :-)
>  
> Best,
> Marcel
> Am 07.12.2021 10:48:58 schrieb Jaromir Matas <mail at jaromir.net>:
> Hi Marcel,
> I tried both do-it from the menu and via CTRL-d and they both behave erratically.
>  
> I’m not sure it’s only the Debugger; I think it happened with some dialogues as well but can’t remember now.
> Thanks,
> Jaromir
>  
> From: Marcel Taeumel [mailto:marcel.taeumel at hpi.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2021 10:35
> To: squeak-dev [mailto:squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org]
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Default preferences
>  
> My bad. You did a "do it", right? Hmm... seems to be debugger-related. Other tools are fine, right? Like "String browse"?
>  
> Best,
> Marcel
> Am 07.12.2021 10:33:32 schrieb Marcel Taeumel <marcel.taeumel at hpi.de>:
> Hi Jaromir --
>  
> > E.g. try do-it (a few times):
>  
> Works for me. Did you "debug it" via the context menu using the mouse? It should only attach if the interaction was done with the mouse so that users can retain focus on the cursor position. Keyboard interaction should not be affected.
>  
> Best,
> Marcel
> Am 07.12.2021 10:01:48 schrieb mail at jaromir.net <mail at jaromir.net>:
> Hi all --
> >
> > There is no need to change the default values for the preferences that are in the PreferenceWizardMorph. Let's focus on whether some interesting preferences are missing from that morph and on the values for preferences not in that morph.
> >
> > Best,
> > Marcel
> I've been testing the "open tools attached to mouse cursor" preference on but its behavior is erratic. E.g. try do-it (a few times):
>
> self halt. self halt
>
> The Debugger sometimes opens attached to the mouse and sometimes not... It's so irregular I haven't discovered any pattern in the behavior and eventually switched the preference off. Is it happening to you too? (I had clean images and Win10 environment)
>
> Best,
>
> ~~~
> ^[^ Jaromir
>
> Sent from Squeak Inbox Talk
>
> On 2021-11-23T09:44:29+01:00, marcel.taeumel at hpi.de wrote:
>
> > Hi all --
> >
> > There is no need to change the default values for the preferences that are in the PreferenceWizardMorph. Let's focus on whether some interesting preferences are missing from that morph and on the values for preferences not in that morph.
> >
> > Best,
> > Marcel
> > Am 23.11.2021 00:13:44 schrieb tim Rowledge :
> > >> 1. Windowing
> > >> Personally, the first thing I do in every new image is to enable these prefs:
> > >> "mouse over for keyboard focus", "open tools attached to mouse cursor", "windows' contents are always active".
> > >> Do I belong to a minority of Squeakers or could we satisfy a majority of Squeakers by turning on these prefs by default?
> >
> > Well *I* wouldn't be happy with them but then I immediately load my prefs file anyway so maybe I wouldn't even notice.
> >
> > > For myself I'd add "Embed a Transcript in a Workspace" because I use and move both around the screen all the time; and frankly, since my first encounter with Squeak I always wondered why I have to open two tools, one of which has a totally nuts name, in order to be able to print "Hello" ;)
> >
> > But a Transcript is fundamentally different to a Workspace; the former is for the system to tell you what is going on, not for scribbling notes.
> >
> >
> > >> 4. Editing
> > >> - Auto enclose brackets -> #beforeSpaces (see [1], pending. Inserting a bracket pair () right before a character just feels pretty useless to me.)
> > >> - Enclose selection with brackets -> true
> >
> > Again, very not OK for me.
> >
> > tim
> > --
> > tim Rowledge; tim at rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim [http://www.rowledge.org/tim]
> > Hackers have kernel knowledge.
> >
> >
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