Hi all,


first of all, I'd like to remind kindly of my original changeset. All the other ideas are exciting as well, but maybe we can maintain a better overview if we return to our roots of trunk-based development ... :-)


> - drag a method into a MessageTrace browser and thus add implementors of that message to the stack.


Hm, is this maybe stuff for a new tool? The proposal reminds me a bit of Vivide, did you try it out? :-)


> > Here is what I would expect from a multi-selection list:

> > - simple click clears and sets the entire selection to a single element
> > - shift+click adds a range to the selection starting from the current element to the clicked one
> > - ctrl+click toggles the selection state of a single element
> > - click-drag drags whatever is currently selected

>

> Outside of Squeak that would be my expectations as well. Ctrl click may open the halo instead...

>

> I can also understand that Chris would be sad to see range selection without the need for touching the keyboard go away. I often use that in the TestRunner to select some but not all test case classes of a package.


Pretty much my thoughts. That does mean that I understand Marcel's arguments, too, but it might indeed interrupt many people's workflows, including mine - I use the "laid-back select" very often in various changes tools. New preference? :P


> > > - Nothing to do with d&d, but how about a very simple way to add notes to methods in a browser? I'm thinking here of using a messagetrace browser and wanting to add little (pop-up?) notes to remind me of any points I notice as I follow the messages up and down. Why was I looking at this? What is it related to? All that stuff it is so easy to forget a week later when you start climbing back up the rabbit hole you fell into.
> >
> > Why not simply send Object>>#todo, and include a comment next to it?
> > No little pop-ups please!
>
> I don't want to *edit* the code for this, I want to *annotate* it in the context of the tool I am using.
>
> One might make a plausible argument that this is not a message tracer anymore; whatever. I suggest that it would be a useful tool.


Have you taken a look at CodeTalk? I would be surprised if it still worked today, but the idea seems not completely new.

But regarding your argument of separating logic and comments, I'm not sure whether I understand your motivation correctly. When would it be helpful for you not to treat them together? Code documents our intentions and approaches, and if something was wrong or to do with the code, I would also want to check in these thoughts together with the code ...


Best,

Christoph


<http://www.hpi.de/>
________________________________
Von: Squeak-dev <squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org> im Auftrag von tim Rowledge <tim at rowledge.org>
Gesendet: Freitag, 30. April 2021 19:02:14
An: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Betreff: Re: [squeak-dev] Browser flash (was Re: The Trunk: Tools-mt.1029.mcz)



> On 2021-04-30, at 1:19 AM, Marcel Taeumel <marcel.taeumel at hpi.de> wrote:
>
> Hmm... it is unusual that a normal click can also select a range. Usually, one would expect to use SHIFT+CLICK to do so, which you can actually do too. :-D I suppose that behavior originates from that older multi-selection list, where a simple click changes the selection state of a single element.... which is also quite unusual given today's widgets in other GUI frameworks.
>
> Here is what I would expect from a multi-selection list:
> - simple click clears and sets the entire selection to a single element
> - shift+click adds a range to the selection starting from the current element to the clicked one
> - ctrl+click toggles the selection state of a single element
> - click-drag drags whatever is currently selected

Pretty much what I'd prefer too. I accept there are plausible 'better' approaches but the daily reality is that having a system reasonably close to (what passes for) normal would be simpler to work with.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; tim at rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Strange OpCodes: SEXI: Sign EXtend Integer


________________________________
Von: Squeak-dev <squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org> im Auftrag von Jakob Reschke <jakres+squeak at gmail.com>
Gesendet: Freitag, 30. April 2021 11:37 Uhr
An: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Betreff: Re: [squeak-dev] Browser flash (was Re: The Trunk: Tools-mt.1029.mcz)

Outside of Squeak that would be my expectations as well. Ctrl click may open the halo instead...

I can also understand that Chris would be sad to see range selection without the need for touching the keyboard go away. I often use that in the TestRunner to select some but not all test case classes of a package.

Marcel Taeumel <marcel.taeumel at hpi.de<mailto:marcel.taeumel at hpi.de>> schrieb am Fr., 30. Apr. 2021, 10:20:
Hmm... it is unusual that a normal click can also select a range. Usually, one would expect to use SHIFT+CLICK to do so, which you can actually do too. :-D I suppose that behavior originates from that older multi-selection list, where a simple click changes the selection state of a single element.... which is also quite unusual given today's widgets in other GUI frameworks.

Here is what I would expect from a multi-selection list:
- simple click clears and sets the entire selection to a single element
- shift+click adds a range to the selection starting from the current element to the clicked one
- ctrl+click toggles the selection state of a single element
- click-drag drags whatever is currently selected

Best,
Marcel

Am 28.04.2021 23:47:24 schrieb tim Rowledge <tim at rowledge.org<mailto:tim at rowledge.org>>:


> On 2021-04-28, at 12:18 PM, Chris Muller wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
>> - all the other browsers ought to support the drag stuff too. I see some do, but the messagetrace doesn't appear to.
>
> "The drag stuff" tells me you don't have a firm grip on the purpose
> and scope of the use-cases. MessageTrace uses swipe to select
> multiple methods. It's rightly confined to what you trace, DnD
> outside its browser doesn't make sense for tracing.

I mildly disagree. Dragging *out* would make sense in various ways. To open another browser, for example. To drop into a text view (where I'd quite like to get the method's reference pasted, perhaps with shift held the method source. Right now we get a not very useful 'compiledMethodBunchOfDigits') or a FileBrowser.

>
>> - drag a method into a MessageTrace browser and thus add implementors of that message to the stack.
>
> That would result in multiple, unrelated Trace's all in the one
> window. I don't understand why you'd want to do that.

I can imagine having a use for a message trace open on several related methods that do not specifically tie together. Maybe #at: & #at:put: would be an example. This would be using a message tracer as a way of gathering methods together as part of thinking about refactorings or extensions.

>
>> - Nothing to do with d&d, but how about a very simple way to add notes to methods in a browser? I'm thinking here of using a messagetrace browser and wanting to add little (pop-up?) notes to remind me of any points I notice as I follow the messages up and down. Why was I looking at this? What is it related to? All that stuff it is so easy to forget a week later when you start climbing back up the rabbit hole you fell into.
>
> Why not simply send Object>>#todo, and include a comment next to it?
> No little pop-ups please!

I don't want to *edit* the code for this, I want to *annotate* it in the context of the tool I am using.

One might make a plausible argument that this is not a message tracer anymore; whatever. I suggest that it would be a useful tool.


tim
--
tim Rowledge; tim at rowledge.org<mailto:tim at rowledge.org>; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
"Bother" said Pooh, as he realised Piglet was undercooked.




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