[squeak-dev] Package commit granularity vs. Project commit granularity (was: FileStreams Limit)
unique75 at web.de
Sat Feb 19 20:04:18 UTC 2022
I think I would solve your „implementation and tests“ problem simply by using a bundle in VisualWorks Store.
You can always publish/commit the „App-Bundle“ and both sub-packages are committed and of course the package versions are fixed/linked inside this specific bundle version.
But others can also load the single package „App-Tests-Package“ and the prerequisite „App-Implementation-Package“ is automatically loaded or the user gets a version selection dialog respectively. Of course others can also load the single package „App-Implementation-Package“ when they do not need the tests.
If you find a good solution with Github it would be great. But if not we should not restrict our thinking by the wrong tools.
Here is another example:
What is when others want your „Tools-Package“ coz it contains really useful things. Then this is located only in your „project“ repository and you need to extract it, so that others can integrate it in their app or in their bundle respectively. So I think Github will restrict us only. I see only a chance when we find a solution where we have ONE repository that can have multiple packages with different versions like in Store. In Store I would simply make a second bundle:
> Am 19.02.2022 um 20:39 schrieb Jakob Reschke <jakres+squeak at gmail.com>:
> Thank you :-)
> We have three topics here:
> 1) the version control workflow and commit granularity, which I was
> trying to extract into its own thread,
> 2) the software repository, bit rot (including: sources disappearing),
> and project endorsement problems,
> 3) issue/task management.
> About 1)
> I need more time to think about how the process you described would
> map to a typical workflow in Git. Then I can reflect again about the
> granularity issue. But I assume that in the end it would be impossible
> to avoid a certain leap and change of habits. So no perfect solution
> that fits naturally for everybody to be expected anyway.
> The standpoint from which I come from is that I always found it to be
> a hassle that I have to commit several packages separately, even
> though they essentially belong together after all (for example, the
> implementation and its tests). Also we see lots of versions in the
> Trunk repository with "Complements <version name in other package>" as
> the commit message... That's why I always regarded it as one big
> contribution of the Git Browser that you can track multiple packages
> in the same project and commit/load/merge them all simultaneously.
> Before the Git Browser, maintaining a Squeak project in Git via
> "plain" Monticello was always a tedious business.
> (Though it does not solve anything for inter-project dependencies,
> which is still only solved by Metacello -- the ConfigurationOfXyz
> classes are a Metacello thing. Metacello is similarly semi-endorsed
> and not integrated in Squeak, therefore also not integrated with its
> tools, and it does not have a GUI on its own as far as I know. That's
> why you are loading things with the workspace...)
> Kind regards,
> Am Sa., 19. Feb. 2022 um 19:50 Uhr schrieb Jörg Belger <unique75 at web.de>:
>> Ohh yes, you are right Jacob, I sent it only to you, it was a mistake. So I will send it now to the mailing list, maybe others find it also interesting. I hope it, I don’t want to be punished for my clear announcements :-)
>> I can imagine that we could also create issues on Github for ideas/proposals/wishes what the most important things are to do. The people can then discuss and prioritize them there and the discussion is then preserved and well documented for future. Everyone who feels called can then pick up such „proposal issues“ and just try to implement it. But discussion these things via email is bad, because all the discussion is forgotten in 1 month and nobody searches in its emails for such things. What we need is a notification system in Github, everybody who wants to be informed by email can do it. I guess Github have something like this, but I am not sure. It would be funny if the master of versioning systems have not such a feature, where people can add itself for notifications. Maybe this here is read by a Github expert, I am just a newbie in Github.
>>> Am 19.02.2022 um 17:26 schrieb Jakob Reschke <jakres+squeak at gmail.com>:
>>> Hi Jörg,
>>> Thank you for this practical explanation! Did you intentionally send
>>> it only to me and not to the list?
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Am Sa., 19. Feb. 2022 um 14:05 Uhr schrieb Jörg Belger <unique75 at web.de>:
>>>> Hi Jacob,
>>>> Please let me give an insight how my workflow is in business with Cincom VisualWorks + Store and why I have the feeling that the Squeak versioning with Monticello and Github is over-complicated and user-unfriendly.
>>>> Store breaks the world into bundles and packages. A bundle can contain other bundles and packages, whereas a package contains code. You can have of course multiple repositories, but only one active repository, where all your publishes/commits goes into. Store is fully integrated into class browser and you see there the bundles/packages as first.class-objects and can right click it and publish it to the active connected repository. You can also add class extension methods into a package, so that you have a view on all your methods that you added to system classes.
>>>> Let´s assume I create now a new package P1, put some code inside and publish it as V1.0. I create now a second package P2 and publish it as V1.0. Let’s assume I did more changes and currently I have already „package P1 V1.2“ and „package P2 V2.7“ in image and repository. I can now create a bundle B, add the two packages P1 and P2 to it and publish the bundle as V1.0. Meanwhile another person works on „package P1“ und publishes V1.3. Every time you load now „bundle B V1.0“ you will get the „package P1 V1.2“ and „package P2 V2.7“ in image. The changes of „package P1 V1.3“ does not matter, because you have fixed/linked some specific package versions into bundle version V1.0. We do that often to combine some tested versions of different subprojects together. From time to time somebody goes through the bundle and look for newer package versions and create a new tested release, where all the new package versions are fixed/linked together again and which is tested. The bundle B is then published as V1.1.
>>>> You can also set „package P1“ as prerequisite for „package P2“. Every time you load P2 you will get a dialog to select the right version of P1. Prerequisite loading is only done within the same active repository. Depending on settings a prerequisite can also be loaded from the installation path as a parcel. But there is no way to load prerequisites from other repositories than the active one.
>>>> Let´s assume we allow multi-repository prerequisites. The Core team adds „package P2“ to its supported things, because it is a wonderful tool and put it into the Core repository R2. But this package P2 depends on package P1 which is on repository R1. The repository R1 is maintained by one private person and 1 year later the repository is deleted or moved to another location or the package P1 there is broken and unloadable etc. etc. etc. There are many reason for that, e.g. the one person has another working style, another quality assumptions etc.
>>>> What is the end of this story? You have a package P2 on the Core repository R2, which is supported… but it does not work, coz side dependencies are out of control and does not work anymore. This is exactly the situation where I run often into when I tried to load things. The URLs in the configuration of supported things does not work anymore or the version did not match anymore, I got always loading hell problems and that is just frustrating. You want to load something and everything you try is not working.
>>>> I do not a see a good way to work with Github like I do it with Store, where I can independently publish different packages with different versions, have prerequisites or fix/link bundle versions. And I think it is not the right way to create a Github repository for every single package. A package is only a logic unit to divide something in logical pieces, it is not a full project or a full eco system like Squeak. I think Monticello is the one that looks to me similar to Store. But it needs a better prerequisite system and not the messy configurations. When I browse a repository version that browser looks to me that this should be the class browser, because I see there my package structure and all the extensions methods.
>>>> Surely I am a newbie to Monticello and all I learned so far is that I load a „ConfigurationOfXXX“ from repository, but then all I know is to execute some workspace code like „ConfigurationOfXXX project latestVersion load“. Maybe there is a better way to not enter always the workspace code. I want simply to load a package with a one-click action in a repository browser and I do not want to think about not-working side-reference URLs and other things. Often I searched around the internet to find a working version of some specific prerequisite and it is always a mess. There happened so crazy things, that I wanted to load something that depends on FFI, but the FFI that is loaded through the Configuration is outdated. I find then a newer FFI in the internet, load that before and the other package was working better. This is nothing what a newbie wants to have when you just evaluate the new Squeak world.
>>>> One other topic I want to mention about versioning is… if we have an issue tracking system… we normally publish a bundle/package with that issue number inside the version string. That means somebody finds a bug and creates an issue 4711 and put it into the public pool. Another person can pickup this issue 4711, solve the problem and publish the changes as „package P1 V1.1 + issue 4711 1“. The last number „1“ is incremented with every publish. This is very helpful, because others see immediately that this version branch is forbidden and „work in progress“. When the issue is finished it is delegated to a reviewer or a pool, where others can pick it up and make the review. The reviewer loads the „issue 4711“ branch of the package, integrate it and publish a new trunk version of the package, in that case it would be „package P1 V1.2“. The advantage is that every time you asking yourself why a specific change was coming into a method, you can see that „issue 4711“ branch in the version history and then you can look into the issue tracker at issue 4711 what the reasons were.
>>>> I do not see how we can work in such a professional way together when we are using emails. I am seeing often emails flying around with Review requests, but emails can be forgotten. The packages contain only some magic name, but no issue number, so the changes are not traceable from what issue they came and why and when. And please guess me, it happens often that you ask 2 years later why a specific change is inside. It is very helpful then to have the documentation history in the issue what the person thought 2 years before.
>>>> I think the optimal solution would be if everybody can subscribe in Github for specific „labels“, „projects“ or whatever. Then everybody can decide by yourself if he/she wants email notification or not. But I do not know if Github can do this.
>>>>> Am 19.02.2022 um 12:07 schrieb Jakob Reschke <jakres+squeak at gmail.com>:
>>>>> Dear Jörg, dear all,
>>>>> Am Sa., 19. Feb. 2022 um 10:54 Uhr schrieb Jörg Belger <unique75 at web.de>:
>>>>>> If somebody thinks know to use Github as source code repository, I like the idea only a little bit, Pharo uses it. It has the advantage that nobody needs to run an own server at home :-)
>>>>>> But the big disadvantage is, that you cannot think anymore in packages with its own version history like in Monticello. You need to think in repositories and branches and if you change two packages that are linked to one Github repository and you commit the first package, then I think you commit the second package too under the same version, because in reality you do not commit the package, you commit your current repository from disk to server. You lost the possibility to version each package differently. That makes it impossible to load later packageA with version 1.5, but loading packageB with version 2.7.
>>>>> To be honest, I do not see the problem here. Smalltalk version control
>>>>> systems almost all offer the feature of configuration maps because it
>>>>> is often required to specify which package versions work together
>>>>> because the packages in fact belong together. In Git and similarly
>>>>> organized version control systems, simply every commit is a
>>>>> configuration of the packages contained therein. If you do not change
>>>>> packageB on your new commit in which you want to change packageA,
>>>>> packageB in that new commit will be equal to packageB in the parent
>>>>> commit. It will not make a difference for packageB from which of the
>>>>> two commits you load it, so why care?
>>>>> If you want to grab a change to one package from a commit but not a
>>>>> change to another package in the same commit -- for whatever reason
>>>>> that the maintainer apparently did not have in mind -- simply make a
>>>>> selective load/checkout: deselect the changes to the other package
>>>>> that you do not want to apply to the image, just as you would deselect
>>>>> changes that you do not want to commit when you create a new commit.
>>>>> Or the other way around: browse the commit from which you need some
>>>>> changes, select the package/category/class which you want, and load
>>>>> just that.
>>>>> If the two packages are really not connected to each other and it is
>>>>> supported to freely combine different versions of them, then there is
>>>>> no point to develop them on the same branch or even in the same
>>>>>> Does anybody knows if we can have a Github repository where we can think like a Smalltalker and commit single packages ?
>>>>> It is just a matter of organizing it as such. Create a new GitHub
>>>>> repository for each package and commit only one package to each
>>>>> repository. The repositories are already organized under your
>>>>> username. For everything beyond a single person, there are GitHub
>>>>> organizations like https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/. If you want
>>>>> to stay within a single Git repository for some reason, create a
>>>>> separate branch for each package and only commit a single package on
>>>>> each branch.
>>>>> Kind regards,
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