[Squeakfoundation][Fwd: Re: installing squeak on Debian Woody]

[Andreas Raab]

Hi Ian,

> That's a _lot_ better.  A total pain to update whenever new versions
> arrive (and too wide to format into a reasonably-dimensioned 
> browser ;)

That is (like the page sez) a proposal. I'm sure people will come along with
better layouts, the point I was trying to make is that it is possible to
have a better organized download page.

> explain why having that huge Unix download matrix is
> better than having a single link to
> 
>   www-sor.inria.fr/~piumarta/squeak

Simple. It means that the Squeak community has a common vocabulary what "the
download page" is and what you need to do in order to get some Squeak
version. It means that if someone asks "where can I get the latest version
of Squeak" we can - regardless of platform or whatever else - answer "go to
The Download Page (tm) and click on either <full> or <VM>+<image> and you
got it". It's also a question between "1 click shopping" or "2 click
shopping" - all user studies on the web will show you that every click is
one click too much so having an "extra link" to your page is significant in
terms of getting to users.

> I don't know if anyone has noticed this but the process is entirely
> automated -- from build to publishing the new downloads (and 
> almost all of the re-sync with SF too ;).

Excellent! That brings up a thought experiment of my own. What if ... you
would merely add a script which inserts your auto-generated matrix into such
a download page? It's a Swiki after all chosen particularly for the ability
to quickly and easily modify and update things. I really don't care how
people update the page - if the process is automated, all the better!

> I still can't see the advantage of reproducing the download 
> links in some place that's only indirectly connected to their
> content's origin:  (1) the matrix is incomplete;
> (2) it's unmaintainable (without inordinate amounts
> of work each time it changes -- and that's sometimes every 
> few hours for Unix during beta test);

None of the two are issues if the matrix is automatically updated.

> and (3) I often pay little or no attention to problem reports
> that arise from VMs packaged by other people -- and I
> suspect you'd feel similarly about repackaged win32 VMs that had been
> randomly scrambled.

Yes. I would, however expect the complaints to go to the people who maintain
the port (which you can find through the "info" button). Note that badly
maintained VMs will likely not being used for long if you have an
alternative. So in this sense the download page encourages competition which
(I think) solves the above problem implicitly.

> Thought experiment terminated. ;)

Let me point out once more what the idea of the download page is: Establish
a single place where ALL of the ports can be found in something like a
"canonical" format. If we decide to redirect users again and again to other
sites where individual bits and pieces can be found we are loosing a lot in
terms of "getting Squeak to the users" rather than vice versa. Let me quote
once more that bit about "a website that I ASSUMED is the standard". I would
like to make it so that there _is_ a standard for Squeak downloads rather
than having people to guess where to go - we have no data about how many
people have tried to get Squeak and failed in doing so (but I have heard a
number of serious complaints from various people and platforms how difficult
it is even to find "all the things you need to run Squeak") and I really
want to reduce that chance. Since it's very simple to do and doesn't require
much work (if you have the process automated it's outright trivial) I favour
the directness of The Download Page (tm) over the many (sometimes obscure)
links that you find these days on, e.g., the Squeak.org downloads.

Cheers,
  - Andreas

> -----Original Message-----
> From: squeakfoundation-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org 
> [mailto:squeakfoundation-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] 
> On Behalf Of Ian Piumarta
> Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 3:01 AM
> To: Discussing the Squeak Foundation
> Cc: ian.piumarta at inria.fr
> Subject: RE: [Squeakfoundation][Fwd: Re: installing squeak on 
> Debian Woody]
> 
> 
> Hi Andreas,
> 
> > What we were trying to achieve with the download page was 
> more along the
> > lines of having a single page with ALL relevant information 
> and direct links
> > to the stuff you need to run Squeak as well as being easily 
> editable. Check
> > out our example at
> > 
> > http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3262
> 
> That's a _lot_ better.  A total pain to update whenever new versions
> arrive (and too wide to format into a reasonably-dimensioned 
> browser ;),
> but _much_ better all the same.
> 
> Now, I have no substantive issues with any reasonable download
> organisation (with one very big exception -- which you'll be able to
> figure out, later in this message).  So what follows is kind 
> of taking my
> position to an extreme, but I'm going to indulge in it anyway 
> as a kind of
> thought experiment...
> 
> Rather than having nrows*ncols of VM dowloads for Unix on 
> that page (with
> so many version numbers screwed into everything that I 
> certainly wouldn't
> want to spend an hour editing it and testing every link each 
> time a new
> release comes out), explain why having that huge Unix 
> download matrix is
> better than having a single link to
> 
>   www-sor.inria.fr/~piumarta/squeak
> 
> where the entire matrix is reproduced (almost) verbatim 
> (except that you
> missed a few archives -- there should be 32 of them in total 
> ;) _and_ is
> generated automatically (it takes me less time to rebuild the entire
> download matrix than it does to open the editor to change the 
> one variable
> defining the version number ;) _and_ in which every one of 
> those download
> links is verified automatically each time I rebuild the page?
> 
> I don't know if anyone has noticed this but the process is entirely
> automated -- from build to publishing the new downloads (and 
> almost all of
> the re-sync with SF too ;).  If I change something for Unix 
> and bump the
> version number, I run one script and 5 minutes later all 
> affected archives
> amongst those 32 have been rebuilt -- and the links to them on the
> download page updated and verified for correctness.
> 
> > which should give you an idea about what we're after (note 
> that the "info"
> > link on Unix VMs goes straight into your primary web site 
> for support)
> 
> I still can't see the advantage of reproducing the download 
> links in some
> place that's only indirectly connected to their content's 
> origin:  (1) the
> matrix is incomplete;  (2) it's unmaintainable (without 
> inordinate amounts
> of work each time it changes -- and that's sometimes every 
> few hours for
> Unix during beta test);  and (3) I often pay little or no attention to
> problem reports that arise from VMs packaged by other people -- and I
> suspect you'd feel similarly about repackaged win32 VMs that had been
> randomly scrambled.  (I recall Stef, I think, although I 
> could be wrong,
> getting quite upset [in public -- which I was not happy about] over
> problems with Solaris that arose from somebody repackaging stuff.)
> 
> > The whole point of this download page is to make clear what 
> the "standard
> > home" for Squeak downloads is, be able to update it easily 
> and provide
> > up-to-date information on the individual ports.
> 
> As far as Unix goes, the most up-to-date you could possibly 
> get would be
> to remove the entire Unix matrix and replace it with one link to the
> original Unix download page.  Or even better, one link and a 
> list of the
> platforms for which archives are available via that link.  (I would be
> more than willing to keep that list up to date -- my OS 
> versions change
> far less frequently than do my VM versions. ;)
> 
> Apart from anything else, when I'm not distracted with other 
> things, new
> betas come out every few days -- sometimes every few hours [*] -- and
> nightly automatic builds of the live source tree are available for
> download too.
> 
> The "download" section for new Unix Squeak users on my page 
> is also much
> more detailed, and includes a lot of information that is 
> specific to Unix.  
> That section is not going to go away, and reproducing a small 
> "generic"
> subset of it elsewhere (along with a bunch of archives that 
> merely incites
> people to dive in potentially underprepared) is simply bad 
> for new Unix
> users.
> 
> Thought experiment terminated. ;)
> 
> Cheers,
> Ian
> 
> [*] Just a silly example: I released beta9 two hours ago.  
> I'm about to
> release beta10 within the next hour -- to incorporate your new
> sqOpenGLRenderer fixes (unless I fall asleep first ;).  If it 
> wasn't for
> the total automation of the process, which makes creating a 
> new release
> (and updating its download links and verifying them) trivial 
> to manage,
> beta10 would not be happening any time soon.  It seems 
> strange to want to
> deprive anyone of that kind of "liveness" by keeping a 
> second-hand set of
> links to stale archives...
> 
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