[UI] What's next?

Tue Sep 4 17:19:46 UTC 2007

That's the plan! (conditionally create a feel).

-----Original Message-----
From: ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
[mailto:ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Bill Schwab
Sent: 04 September 2007 6:12 pm
To: ui at lists.squeakfoundation.org
Subject: RE: [UI] What's next?

Gary,

I think you will understand my position once you face the masses.  If you
find them agreeable to a Squeak feel, PLEASE let me know. 
Otherwise, I look forward to creating something that can conditionally
create a feel that I could put before the users I have described.

Thanks!

Bill

Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
University of Florida
Department of Anesthesiology
PO Box 100254
Gainesville, FL 32610-0254

Email: bschwab at anest.ufl.edu
Tel: (352) 846-1285
FAX: (352) 392-7029

>>> gazzaguru2 at btinternet.com 09/04/07 1:06 PM >>>
I agree, I'd like a nice consistent UI. However, I'd also not want to
alienate different approaches. Hard to do both!

-----Original Message-----
From: ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
[mailto:ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Bill Schwab
Sent: 04 September 2007 5:59 pm
To: ui at lists.squeakfoundation.org
Subject: RE: [UI] What's next?

Gary,

I believe the image in question originated via my Ubuntu system - no
warranties re which version etc., though it can probably tell us. 
However, I doubt very much that I loaded the integration first.  I can try
it again, but I am fairly certain I got that right.

My comments re Dolphin are not meant as a slight; you are doing a great job.
I am disappointed that so many in the Squeak community seem to forget that
much of the mechanical and visual vocabulary embodied in mainstream
interfaces (to avoid web weirdness, say circa 2000) has its origins in
usability testing (to be fair, much of it done my M$), a very long time ago.
Things work(ed) the way they do because that was what worked with Joe
Average in various walks of life.  To the extent that we can benefit from
that research, the better we will serve our users.  I have no objection to
trying to do better, but we should do so having the basics covered.

Consider me interested in making menus stay put unless dragged by a title
bar.  Won't presume to speak for others (except your users<g>).

Bill

Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
University of Florida
Department of Anesthesiology
PO Box 100254
Gainesville, FL 32610-0254

Email: bschwab at anest.ufl.edu
Tel: (352) 846-1285
FAX: (352) 392-7029

>>> gazzaguru2 at btinternet.com 09/04/07 12:27 PM >>>
I think the topWindow problems were due to having possibly loaded the the
ToolBuilder integration before the Widgets. I've done through the senders of
#topWindow in my stuff and identified only one place that it may fail (when
using the task Switcher), fixed. I have noticed there's an unprotected call
on that method from ServiceAction (World topRequestor), outside my changes.

If there's interest I can preferentially change the "pick-up" of menus.

Remember, Dolphin, at its heart, is based on the Windows api. Very fixed!
I'm try to please all people all of the time (lol).

Lost clicks - if anybody else can identify this as a problem I will, of
course, investigate.

Thank you for your freedback.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
[mailto:ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Bill Schwab
Sent: 04 September 2007 5:18 pm
To: ui at lists.squeakfoundation.org
Subject: RE: [UI] What's next?

Gary,

Unless they are really desperate and computer aware enough to understand
what is going on, my prediction is that they would complain about menus that
get picked up on errant clicks, "random" focus movement, etc.  I know it
drives me nuts.  I push Dolphin pretty hard.  Not that I would enter a
contest, but people sometimes complain about the racket while I type; I
burst at well over 100 words per minute when I am "on" [*]. 
Note that I can do this only when the words are in my head vs. on paper.
Regardless of the details, Squeak's GUI feels incredibly fragile to me by
comparison to Dolphin's, and in fact, just about any text or programmer's
editor I have ever used.  I suspect your users would have the same reaction.

My problems with #topWindow were in 3.9; no lost clicks there.  I never
quite fixed the IDE problems though (implementors etc. throw walkbalks),
very likely my fault.  The 3.10 Squeak-dev image works, except that it
suffers lost clicks.

Bill

[*] Note that I am a mere shadow of the fastest typist I have ever seen. She
was a secretary in my department during grad school, and literally wore the
markings off of keyboards.  Scary thing was she could talk while going at
full speed (accurately too).

Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
University of Florida
Department of Anesthesiology
PO Box 100254
Gainesville, FL 32610-0254

Email: bschwab at anest.ufl.edu
Tel: (352) 846-1285
FAX: (352) 392-7029

>>> gazzaguru2 at btinternet.com 09/04/07 11:35 AM >>>
As for users... Yet to be deployed to them (Report Builder)... Though I have
done some work on "lock-down" to prevent unexpected menus etc in a deployed
application.

For version, this has not been tested by myself with 3.10, just 3.9. I
haven't noticed any "lost clicks" with scrollbars but then, they are
timing/step based for the "page" areas...

-----Original Message-----
From: ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
[mailto:ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Bill Schwab
Sent: 04 September 2007 4:22 pm
To: ui at lists.squeakfoundation.org
Subject: RE: [UI] What's next?

Gary,

That was quick!  I will certainly check it out.  I am negligent in not yet
finding your previous emails listing some assumptions about the image.
Reasons aside, I had problems until I downloaded the Squeak-dev image, at
which point implementors... etc. worked.  I noted some problems with "lost
clicks" but I assume that pre-dates your recent changes and/or is specific
to 3.10.

Are there any tricks to updating that image to contain your new work?

As an aside, I am surprised you have put so much attention into look w/o
worrying (much) about feel.  If you don't mind describing it, who are your
users?  If not specifically, what type of tasks, what level of expertise?  I
am curious because I find it difficult to envision people who would be
attracted by your appearance enhancements and not lost due to the feel
problems.

THANKS!!!

Bill

Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
University of Florida
Department of Anesthesiology
PO Box 100254
Gainesville, FL 32610-0254

Email: bschwab at anest.ufl.edu
Tel: (352) 846-1285
FAX: (352) 392-7029

>>> gazzaguru2 at btinternet.com 09/04/07 10:48 AM >>>
I have uploaded a new version of Widgets to SqueakSource. Hopefully adds
"click to focus" functionality. Untested properly at the moment so holding
off updating the Universe. Perhaps some brave people would like to have a
go!

Two extra preferences added: mouseClickForKeyboardFocus and
windowsActiveOnFirstClick. The first covers the changes for making the
#mouseEnter behaviour (i.e take keyboard focus) optional for most basic
morphs. The second, with a bit of a fix, allows the first click on an
inactive window to properly propagate to the clicked morph after activating
its containing window.

I find it a bit strange to have to assume "normal" behaviour with these
options! (Have go used to the Squeaky/Motif way of focus handling, in a
(using Squeak) modal way!).

Feedback always appreciated!

Gary.

-----Original Message-----
From: ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org
[mailto:ui-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Bill Schwab
Sent: 02 September 2007 12:11 am
To: ui at lists.squeakfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [UI] What's next?

Brad,

Good point about the task bar - there are other solutions to that problem,
but none as slick.

More generally, if you want to start with specifications, that is fine;
count me in.  I suspect they will be completely ignored, just as Squeak's
deficiencies have been ignored.  Whether by preferences or perhaps themed
feel, we might have a chance to break through the "please don't break our
toy" resistance by producing something nice enough that there will be some
backlash against any who attempt to blackball it. 
For those who genuinely prefer the motif behavior, we should offer it from
the beginning, but we should also provide a way to meet the demands of end
users who have learned that they can freely "shove the mouse out of the
way."

In short, however we get there, I think our ultimate product should be
working code with enough appeal (and I think Gary has the basics to make it
work) to get the average Squeaker (if there is such a person) to want it.

Bill

Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
University of Florida
Department of Anesthesiology
PO Box 100254
Gainesville, FL 32610-0254

Email: bschwab at anest.ufl.edu
Tel: (352) 846-1285
FAX: (352) 392-7029

>>> bradallenfuller at yahoo.com 09/01/07 5:37 PM >>>
----- Original Message ----
From: Bill Schwab <BSchwab at anest.ufl.edu>
To: ui at lists.squeakfoundation.org
Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2007 9:48:34 AM
Subject: [UI] What's next?

> Do any of you have any regrets about installing Gary's packages? I am 
> tempted to load them into my working 3.9 image. Any reports of bad 
> experience would be appreciated.

I haven't found a problem except the one I mentioned to Gary, and it must
have been my fault, so no need to elaborate on my errs ;-)

> Without any implied lack of gratitude, the changes are thus far simply

> eye candy.

perhaps, with the excepttion of the taskbar at the bottom, which may be
helpful to some for auto-arranging the desktop. 

Gary's work is much appreciated and I can't wait until he finishes it!

>  As impressive and helpful as the changes are, I will stick to my
long-standing assertion
that Squeak's real GUI problems are feel related.

I don't agree that it's exclusively feel related. There are many "look"
issues as well. I contend that "look and feel" go hand-in-hand and maybe we
should approach it this way?

>  Does this group want to tackle that problem?

YES!

>  How?

I still push the idea that we need guidelines first. But, i wanted to hear
from more on this discussion topic before I said anything else (plus, I've
been swamped too!)

> Do we want to adopt Gary's work as a foundation?

Foundation for what? 

> I am tempted to vote in the affirmative on the latter, and hope that 
> we will go further by taming the mouse-over activation and focus 
> madness.

This could be easily remedied by first agreeing upon a keyboard focus
rule(s) and then implementing the rule into the standard image (maybe for
3.10?.) With the rule in place, software authors will at least know what the
rest of the community believes to be best practice. They can violate it if
they want in their own apps, but at least it's stated.

Maybe this could be our first project. 

> Preferences are fine: I would not want to force
> convention on others any more than I want to subject my users to (what

> would appear to them as) random behavior as they move the mouse.

Preferences settings has been a long standing feature in Squeak. Frankly, I
don't know how good it is. I like it, but there are some good arguments
against this (see Raskin.)

> Gary's work is yet another illustration that native widgets are not 
> necessary to achieve any particular look, and I am confident we can 
> illustrate the same re feel.

Sorry, I always get confused on what "native" means. Does it mean native to
the hosting OS, or native to Squeak?  Maybe we should not use the word
"native" and use "Host" or "OS" and "Squeak": e.g.: OS-widgets,
Host-widgets; Squeak-widgets, Host-derived widgets -- ???

To comment on your comment, I believe that Squeak-derived widgets forces
easy portability between hosts. 

brad

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