[Vm-dev] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] VMMaker metacello config for Squeak and Pharo

Andreas Raab andreas.raab at gmx.de
Sat Feb 6 02:16:19 UTC 2010

Hi Torsten -

I am not interesting in arguing. I have looked at Metacello, quite 
seriously, a while ago. It's true, I didn't load your config before 
writing my note, for which I apologize. Things seem to have improved 
significantly from when I last looked at it, which is good news.

   - Andreas

Torsten Bergmann wrote:
> Hi Andreas,
> a simple question: why do you warn others about "jumping heads-on" 
> into a "frenzy" technology, when you never had a deeper look at 
> Metacello or the simple config I provided for VMMaker? 
> I havent changed a single package in VMMaker, the loading order, etc.
> you can continue to load and use VMMaker as before. Even in your own custom
> images. Nothing has changed!!!
> The only thing that is different now is that there is an easy way
> for Metacello users to load VMMaker into Squeak or Pharo. If you dont
> like Metacello - no problem - you dont have to use it.
> As I said - the config is just additionally available. One can use it or 
> ignore it - but we need feedback from David or other VM maintainers (like you)
> about the VMMaker Monticello package dependencies and Monticello file versions 
> to keep this config maintained. If they change it would be good to update the
> config. Nothing more!
>> Given the dependencies of Metacello itself I think there is an actual 
>> risk of that happening
> Please enlighten me. Where do you see that risk? Did we introduce a
> dependency for VMMaker on Universe or SqueakMap code when we registered VMMaker 
> there? No! Sample applies to Metacello.
>> BTW, it is unfair to spam your message to both Squeak-dev and the Pharo 
>> list just to paint me as a nay-sayer in the community.
> Now you are the one who is interpreting! I wrote my original mail and the response 
> to all three lists and since I use a web browser for reading 
> (sqf.org/pipermail) and answering (GMX) I didnt notice that you responded 
> only on vm-dev. This is also the reason why I constantly create new threads (sorry guys). 
> I think you paint yourself as nay-sayer. Why do you warn about someting
> that help others to move forward. When you work with VMMaker day by day 
> it is easy for you to follow all the package changes and stay on track.
> But if someone wants to build a VM he will not start with google and
> search for the right packages. He will just load it with all dependencies.
> Metacello provides an easy way to do that. Nothing more.
>> If there are none, that's great. However, the last time I loaded some 
>> Metacello stuff (which is a couple of weeks ago) it pulled in all sorts 
>> of things including OmniBrowser and left some modification in other 
>> packages. 
> Will you blame Metacello for loading something that was depending
> on OmniBrowser or that someone created a configuration with packages
> overriding others?  Then help to clean the config.
> Metacello is a vehicle to describe package dependencies
> and versions that fit together. You can even unload it easily after 
> it brought in the code.
> Again - please invest a few minutes in learning about metacello!
> Thanks
> T.

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