[Vm-dev] Sounds baaad sounds

[Igor Stasenko]

On 1 February 2011 09:28, Andreas Raab <andreas.raab at gmx.de> wrote:
>
> On 1/31/2011 9:08 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>
>> On 31 January 2011 19:21, Andreas Raab<andreas.raab at gmx.de>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Huh? Are you saying that Pharo contains different primitives than Squeak?
>>> If
>>> not, I somewhat fail to see the problem.
>>>
>> I don't feel ok knowing that VM depends on right combination of
>> classes in Sound package,
>> since there is no clear separation between plugin and language side
>> implementation.
>
> I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. What's used from the sound
> package is generated primitives; it's not that there is explicit plugin code
> anywhere. The same holds for the Graphics and some other packages. And,
> FWIW, you do not *need* the sound package to generate the VM; you do without
> it if you're willing to forego the generated primitives (and if there is
> some dependency in VMMaker that does indeed *require* the sound package,
> then we should remove the dependency).
>

Yes, VMMaker depends on Sound package. And yes, we need to reconcile
this dependency into
some nicer form.

Take a ADPCMCodec for example. It having primitives in its
private[Decode/Encode][Mono/Stereo] methods.

If i remove ADPCMCodec from image/package, i can no longer load
VMMaker, because ADPCMCodecPlugin having direct
reference to ADPCMCodec and taking primitives from it.
It would be nice to move all such primitives to plugin, so VMMaker
will not have dependency from arbitrary image-side code,
(which btw is optional and could be(not) present in image, or use
different class names, but use original VM primitives or any
combination of them)..


>> Pharo could diverge to the point that it could not load a Squeak's
>> Sound package anymore.
>
> Well, let's be a bit realistic. The scenario you are describing sounds
> excruciatingly unlikely because if Pharo can no longer load Smalltalk code I
> think it will have much bigger problems than the sound plugin.
>

By unable to load, i mean unable to load cleanly. If you have
unresolved globals, like
missing superclass - you can still force to load the code, but what
you get as result?
Any please tell me why VMMaker should depend on arbitrary image-side
code, instead
of having a well maintained separate set of packages , which clearly
defining what is 'VM' and its plugins.


As i said, since there is no clear separation about what belongs to
VM/plugin and what belongs image side,
the only means how to maintain this code is either freeze it for ages,
or throw it out completely.


>> So, it won't be able to load VMMaker or even if it do, then generated
>> VM code will be different depending on image you using.
>> What i want to achieve is to make VMMaker be image agnostic, so it
>> could be loaded cleanly
>> into any image and produce same code as it was years ago using different
>> image.
>
> That's a nice goal but already untrue. For example, later versions of
> VMMaker cannot be loaded into pre-3.9 images. So the goal that VMMaker can
> be loaded into "any" image is already untrue and really not necessary. I'd
> say your time would be better spent on improving the test suite for the VM
> so that we can ensure that VMs we care about have the right properties.
>

Clarification: being able to load latest VM into latest image(s)
namely: squeak and pharo.
This is my goal.
I don't like that VMMaker can only be loaded/work in some old 3.8 image(s),
and impossible to use with latest and greatest images we are developing :)

The automation, which i slowly crawling & doing aims exactly for this purpose:
 - it takes the _latest_ available image and tries to load VMMaker there

in this way, we will keep VMMaker in sync with development mainline,
because if something will go wrong, we will know about it immediately.

Another approach is :  'don't care' .. then we could end up with situation, when
to generate VM you should use some years old crappy image,
and to run that image, you will need years old crappy VM , which runs
on years old crappy OS..
and which in own turn runs on years old crappy hardware..
So... make your choice.
:)

> Cheers,
>  - Andreas
>


-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.