[Vm-dev] [Pharo-dev] Pony for Pharo VM

Robert robert.withers at pm.me
Tue Apr 21 17:08:40 UTC 2020

Oh! OO is async message passing? Which Alan Kay lectures are you referencing? I would like to watch them.

The only thing I have heard you state is some requirement for near real-time that evidently the CogVM fails to meet. You have a language you do not really like, running on top of this near real-time garbage collector you claim Squeak fails at. This language introduces a type system to do compile-time analysis of actor messaging for some false sense of safety as well as optimization for performance. I would accept the second reasoning, if the near real-time requirement require such. I do not believe it does. A worst case 90 ms response time to a real-time event is absolutely sufficient. It sounds to me as if you are claiming requirements that only Pony/Orca can meet, thus justifying use of your language. In practically every near real-time system, such performance guarantees are met with a 90 ms delay. Unless you are justifying the language used by setting such a high bar...I have seen it happen.

No other language feature that I can see, but I may very well "not following the main thrust of the ideas we are discussing." So please review I am a little lost.

I re-added the list for discussions on requirements.

k, r

On 4/21/20 12:56 PM, Shaping wrote:

> You’re not understanding what object-orientation is.  Note the underlined bit.  OO has nothing to do with the devices chosen for coding and organizing coded programs:  Inheritance, classes, mixins, methods.  These and several others are conventions.  These can change often and have.  Some are good; some are okay; some are terrible, like mixins.
> OO is instead about changing program state asynchronously by messages.  See the many Kay lectures on this.
> The extreme is the point of the comment.  Ironic is that the ideal and first language for object-orientation utterly failed to get it right at run-time.  You’re not following the main thrust of the ideas we are discussing.
> Shaping
> From: Robert [mailto:robert.withers at pm.me]
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 April, 2020 10:47
> To: Shaping [<shaping at uurda.org>](mailto:shaping at uurda.org)
> Subject: Re: [Vm-dev] [Pharo-dev] Pony for Pharo VM
> Hi Shaping,
> I tried again with the url in your image, but I am not getting to the post you took an image of. If you would just send me the link for that entire thread, evidently discussing "how real object-oriented programs work at run-time", I would be grateful. Which is hilarious by the way, as Smalltalk was the first object-oriented system ever developed. From our perspective, real object oriented systems utilize message passingand are late binding.
> On 4/21/20 10:54 AM, Shaping wrote:
>> Read the thread above and watch the video to sharper your imagination and mental model, somewhat, for how real object-oriented programs work at run-time.
> --
> Kindly,
> Robert

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