[Vm-dev] [Pharo-dev] Squeak and Pharo speed differences

[Shaping]

Hi Shaping,

Hi Robert.  (We’ll get back to the parallelizing any day now…)

On 5/16/20 8:47 AM, Shaping wrote:

Can you tell me about those efforts?  I know the VM is one, maybe the biggest.  What else do Squeak folks work on?

 I also understand why the developers of the new Pharo preferences tree did not like to invest the same effort in Squeak. What incentive would they have?

 

Make all features (GUIs/frameworks) loadable into a new, mostly empty image.

 

Andso, here we have the biggest challenge to doing such sharing. You say all features should be loadable into either image. The issue is that Pharo has driven forwards in creating new load formats, such as Tonel. I tried to load up the Tonel format, but failed.

 

Who oversees stuff like this?

Specifically, why don’t we now make Tonel avaibable on Squeak, with the objective of equalizing access to source code, so that we can use one image ultimately—a nice steady gradual drift toward one image, so that no one is in too much pain at any one point in time.

Why wasn’t this done when Tonel was first created?  The Pharo dev probably didn’t see it as good use of  dev time.  I kindly suggest that this attitude change for all contributors to both Smalltalks.

How long is the list of format-related code/frameworks that need to be equalized, so that Squeak and Pharo can always load the same things?

 I couldn't get distracted from my core work.

Sure, I feel the same.  I imaging that most of us do.   

NO EFFORTS have been made to have Squeak able to load such formats, and the Pharo folks have deprecated the existing Montecello load format,

In my Pharo 9 I have a bit these bits:

 

Gofer new

    squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository';

    package: 'ConfigurationOfAida';

    load.

  (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfAida) load.

 

Metacello new

baseline:'Seaside3';

repository: 'github://SeasideSt/Seaside:master/repository';

load

 

So does this that mean Pharo strictly uses only Metacello and Git for version control now?

 

from a long time in Squeak. In particular, it is not possible to load a Monticello Configuration Map in Pharo and Squeak can't load the newer formats Pharo has created.

Yeah, that’s not healthy for the community.

 

So there is no commonality of load systems between Squeak/Pharo. It totally sucks.

Agreed.  Thanks for plainly saying so.  We need more of that.

 

That is step number one to having features co-loadable, common load systems.

Agreed.

I recall someone from the Pharo side being disparaging to the Monticello load format, so there is no interested in making features cross-image. NONE. ZERO! It is a hard fork. So sad. :(

It is very sad.   Let’s fix it.

Don’t the Consortium have an interest in such things?  Are the Consortium so Pharo-centric that they view Squeak as a useless blob of programming IP?  I don’t think so.  If there is genuine respect for the value of Squeak and Pharo on both sides, allowing their continued divergence and the many attendant frustrations to mount is negligent and wasteful.  

 Can we stop doing that?

I’m under the impression that Pharo folks want ultimately to use only Git, and that even the Metacello will be phased out.  Is that correct?   What is the version-control plan on Pharo, and can we implement the same plan—whatever that is--for Squeak too?

 

Shaping

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