[Vm-dev] [list] Cannot receive plain-text messages

Sun Sep 18 00:36:42 UTC 2022

Wow, they actually acknowledged that they behave wrong!

KB969854

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/exchange/troubleshoot/mailflow/message-body-shown-as-attachment

The ticket is just ... 12 years old, and still not fixed, though ... :(

Best,
Christoph

---
Sent from Squeak Inbox Talk

On 2022-09-18T00:19:10+00:00, christoph.thiede at student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de wrote:

> Hi Dave, Hi Tobias, Hi all,
> 
> 
> I took another look at the multipart sources of the vm-lists which I cannot read in my client. The difference seems to be that on squeak-dev, the order of MIME parts is:
> 
> 
> multipart/mixed
> 
> - multipart/alternative
> - - text/plain
> - - text/html
> - text/plain (Content-Disposition: inline, the empty stub)
> 
> 
> Whereas on vm-dev, the outer MIME parts are ordered the other way around:
> 
> 
> multipart/mixed
> 
> - text/plain (Content-Disposition: inline, the empty stub)
> - multipart/alternative
> 
> - - text/plain
> - - text/html
> 
> 
> I confirmed by experiment that my mail client (Outlook Web App) only displays the first multipart element, even if it is empty, so the order matters indeed.
> 
> I also sent a test message to vm-dev (please forgive me the noise!) with just a single multipart/alternative, and the mailing list automatically wrapped it into a multipart/mixed. So Tobias seems to be wrong and mailman does indeed manipulate the contents of each message.
> 
> 
> I think this behavior violates rfc1341<https://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc1341/7_2_Multipart.html>:
> 
> 
> > Mail gateways, relays, and other mail handling agents are commonly known to alter the top-level header of an RFC 822 message. In particular, they frequently add, remove, or reorder header fields. Such alterations are explicitly forbidden for the body part headers embedded in the bodies of messages of type "multipart."
> 
> And later:
> 
> > In general, user agents that compose multipart/alternative entities should place the body parts in increasing order of preference, that is, with the preferred format last. For fancy text, the sending user agent should put the plainest format first and the richest format last. Receiving user agents should pick and display the last format they are capable of displaying.
> 
> 
> So according to the RFC, mailman/the list should not add its empty inline field at all (it just adds no value to the reader, right?). But if it needs to stick with that extra field (why?), according to the RFC, the current order is already correct. Also, my client clearly violates this point of the RFC as it displays the first instead of the last mixed element.
> 
> 
> Dave, mailadmins, whoever is responsible for this list, do you have any option to reconfigure mailman to have it work just like it works for squeak-dev, or just remove the superfluous mime element at all? I will also try to report this bug to Microsoft, but my gut tells me that I won't be able to convince them to follow the standards ... they never did. :-)
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Christoph
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 18:51:12 +0200
> From: Tobias Pape <Das.Linux at gmx.de>
> To: Open Smalltalk Virtual Machine Development Discussion
>         <vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> Subject: Re: [Vm-dev] [list] Cannot receive plain-text messages
> Message-ID: <4D28BEB3-A6D6-41EE-83FE-0961B758F257 at gmx.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
> 
> 
> 
> > On 4. May 2022, at 18:36, Thiede, Christoph <Christoph.Thiede at student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Marcel,
> >
> > (currently I have switched to the digest subscription option so that I can receive your answers :D)
> >
> > Thanks for the details!
> >
> > > ... and Tobias just told me that mailman does not change that stuff but forwards the content it gets. So the issue is how mail clients or SMTP servers push out that stuff. And we cannot control that.
> >
> > This is strange ...
> >
> > Object pinning vs. garbage collection
> >
> > > We are sending messages for commits to VMMaker and Trunk to vm-dev and squeak-dev. Do those look okay on vm -dev for you?
> >
> > I have not subscribed enough time ago to receive any VMMaker message. I will report back. :-)
> >
> > > What about my messages to vm-dev from April 2022? Were you subscribed then?
> >
> > For instance in the thread "Object pinning vs. garbage collection", I cannot read any of your messages:
> >
> 
> Well, OWA is dumb as heck.
> It has no idea of multipart mixed, apparently and freely reëncodes emails you sent over it.
> Avoid it like plague.
> 
> -t
> 
> > <pastedImage.png>
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Christoph
> >
> > Von: Vm-dev <vm-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org> im Auftrag von vm-dev-request at lists.squeakfoundation.org <vm-dev-request at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Mai 2022 16:41 Uhr
> > An: vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > Betreff: Vm-dev Digest, Vol 191, Issue 2
> >
> > Send Vm-dev mailing list submissions to
> >         vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >         http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/vm-dev
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >         vm-dev-request at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >         vm-dev-owner at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Vm-dev digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. [list] Cannot receive plain-text messages (Thiede, Christoph)
> >    2. Re: [list] Cannot receive plain-text messages (Marcel Taeumel)
> >    3. Re: [list] Cannot receive plain-text messages (Marcel Taeumel)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 13:58:03 +0000
> > From: "Thiede, Christoph"
> >         <Christoph.Thiede at student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>
> > To: "vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org"
> >         <vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > Subject: [Vm-dev] [list] Cannot receive plain-text messages
> > Message-ID:
> >         <3483f711b6594b8bbf9a313a2af667c3 at student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> >
> > while I have subscribed to squeak-dev for a longer time, I only subscribed recently to vm-dev. Unfortunately, I cannot view most messages in my e-mail client - I only see an attachment of the HTML file. It appears as if the plaintext version of the message is missing and the HTML version is classified incorrectly. This does not regard messages from the OSVM bot (GitHub) only but also normal messages sent by Eliot, Marcel, et al. - but at the same time, the messages sent by the same person to squeak-dev look fine on my end.
> >
> >
> > In other mailing clients (and in Squeak Inbox Talk), everything looks fine, but I do not want to switch away from OWA. In the message headers, I could not find any interesting difference. My subscription settings for both lists are identical. I also noted that the pipermail archives do not look identical, but this is probably unrelated.
> >
> >
> > Any ideas on what might cause this, and any chance to fix this in the mailing list configuration/servers?
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Christoph
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/vm-dev/attachments/20220504/711e1fcf/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 16:30:25 +0200
> > From: Marcel Taeumel <marcel.taeumel at hpi.de>
> > To: vm-dev <vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Vm-dev] [list] Cannot receive plain-text messages
> > Message-ID: <Mailbird-962b3cb8-6d49-4152-b760-5f1e8e80c3dc at hpi.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Hi Christoph --
> >
> > My best guess is that for most content, there is only ...
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
> >
> > But for HTML content, that base64 portion is still there but empty and
> > a "multipart/7bit" thingy is appended:
> >
> > Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> > boundary="--==_mimepart_6270e81cedff8_504bd4087255e8"; charset="UTF-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > ----==_mimepart_6270e81cedff8_504bd4087255e8
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > ----==_mimepart_6270e81cedff8_504bd4087255e8
> > Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Hmm.... on squeak-dev, Chris' mail about "source.squeak.org upgrade" was
> >
> > Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
> >
> >
> > And used "base64" and "quoted-printable" for plain/text and html/text respectively.
> > That version seems to work on OWA as well.
> >
> > Well ... one could look at the vm-dev configuration in mailman to figure out when
> >
> > Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
> >
> >
> > is claimed but the main portion is
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
> > Content-Disposition: inline
> >
> > IA==
> >
> > ... and thus empty. Yet, a clever e-mail client can figure this out es well. OWA cannot. :-)
> >
> > Best,
> > Marcel
> > Am 04.05.2022 15:58:12 schrieb Thiede, Christoph <christoph.thiede at student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>:
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > while I have subscribed to squeak-dev for a longer time, I only subscribed recently to vm-dev. Unfortunately, I cannot view most messages in my e-mail client - I only see an attachment of the HTML file. It appears as if the plaintext version of the message
> > is missing and the HTML version is classified incorrectly. This does not regard messages from the OSVM bot (GitHub) only but also normal messages sent by Eliot, Marcel, et al. - but at the same time, the messages sent by the same person to squeak-dev look
> > fine on my end.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In other mailing clients (and in Squeak Inbox Talk), everything looks fine, but I do not want to switch away from OWA. In the message headers, I could not find any interesting difference. My subscription settings for both lists are identical. I also noted
> > that the pipermail archives do not look identical, but this is probably unrelated.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Any ideas on what might cause this, and any chance to fix this in the mailing list configuration/servers?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Christoph
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/vm-dev/attachments/20220504/02650177/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 16:41:19 +0200
> > From: Marcel Taeumel <marcel.taeumel at hpi.de>
> > To: vm-dev <vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Vm-dev] [list] Cannot receive plain-text messages
> > Message-ID: <Mailbird-82be7410-b735-4624-9082-38354e056993 at hpi.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > ... and Tobias just told me that mailman does not change that stuff but forwards the content it gets. So the issue is how mail clients or SMTP servers push out that stuff. And we cannot control that.
> >
> > This would mean that the kind of messages sent to vm-dev is fundamentally different to the once sent to squeak-dev. Provided that you can actually read all stuff that arrives via squeak-dev. Hmm... GitHub is not sending stuff to squeak-dev.
> >
> > We are sending messages for commits to VMMaker and Trunk to vm-dev and squeak-dev. Do those look okay on vm -dev for you?
> >
> > What about my messages to vm-dev from April 2022? Were you subscribed then?
> >
> > Best,
> > Marcel
> > Am 04.05.2022 16:30:25 schrieb Marcel Taeumel <marcel.taeumel at hpi.de>:
> > Hi Christoph --
> >
> > My best guess is that for most content, there is only ...
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
> >
> > But for HTML content, that base64 portion is still there but empty and
> > a "multipart/7bit" thingy is appended:
> >
> > Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> > boundary="--==_mimepart_6270e81cedff8_504bd4087255e8"; charset="UTF-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > ----==_mimepart_6270e81cedff8_504bd4087255e8
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > ----==_mimepart_6270e81cedff8_504bd4087255e8
> > Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Hmm.... on squeak-dev, Chris' mail about "source.squeak.org upgrade" was
> >
> > Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
> >
> >
> > And used "base64" and "quoted-printable" for plain/text and html/text respectively.
> > That version seems to work on OWA as well.
> >
> > Well ... one could look at the vm-dev configuration in mailman to figure out when
> >
> > Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
> >
> >
> > is claimed but the main portion is
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
> > Content-Disposition: inline
> >
> > IA==
> >
> > ... and thus empty. Yet, a clever e-mail client can figure this out es well. OWA cannot. :-)
> >
> > Best,
> > Marcel
> > Am 04.05.2022 15:58:12 schrieb Thiede, Christoph <christoph.thiede at student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>:
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > while I have subscribed to squeak-dev for a longer time, I only subscribed recently to vm-dev. Unfortunately, I cannot view most messages in my e-mail client - I only see an attachment of the HTML file. It appears as if the plaintext version of the message
> > is missing and the HTML version is classified incorrectly. This does not regard messages from the OSVM bot (GitHub) only but also normal messages sent by Eliot, Marcel, et al. - but at the same time, the messages sent by the same person to squeak-dev look
> > fine on my end.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In other mailing clients (and in Squeak Inbox Talk), everything looks fine, but I do not want to switch away from OWA. In the message headers, I could not find any interesting difference. My subscription settings for both lists are identical. I also noted
> > that the pipermail archives do not look identical, but this is probably unrelated.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Any ideas on what might cause this, and any chance to fix this in the mailing list configuration/servers?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Christoph
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/vm-dev/attachments/20220504/7bf9fe77/attachment.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Vm-dev mailing list
> > Vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/vm-dev
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Vm-dev Digest, Vol 191, Issue 2
> > **************************************
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 10:28:58 -0700
> From: tim Rowledge <tim at rowledge.org>
> To: Open Smalltalk Virtual Machine Development Discussion
>         <vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
> Subject: Re: [Vm-dev] [OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm] please update
>         branch oldTrunk (Issue #604)
> Message-ID: <D847E95B-D0B0-49B8-864E-67C4D8708072 at rowledge.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
> 
> Hi Phil - any more recent news? It would be fantastic to get this rolled out for Squeak 6, for example
> 
> > On 2022-01-17, at 8:20 PM, Phil B <pbpublist at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I should probably give a quick update since I've dropped off the radar for the past couple of months...
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 2:13 PM tim Rowledge <tim at rowledge.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 2022-01-17, at 10:30 AM, David T. Lewis <lewis at mail.msen.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 10:09:54AM -0800, tim Rowledge wrote:
> > >>
> > >> This is excellent news; thank you for all the work.
> > >>
> > >> Question: is this the 'old' vm? New? Both?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Both :-)
> >
> > Even better.
> >
> > Almost ;-)  The tarball that Dave and the web admins put up is to get Jonas current with the classic VM.  The existing Debian package is something like 7+ years old so this should get Debian back in sync with us.  Once that's done, we can start making the package changes needed to get it to coexist with the new VM (which I still have some work to do on)... then it will be time to celebrate.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > The existing Debian squeak-vm package (https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/squeak-vm)
> > > has only the old VM. Phil has been working on adding the new VMs to the package,
> > > as well as updating the old VM to current source levels.
> > >
> > > This is not a trivial project and Phil has been doing a great job of managing it.
> >
> > Oh yeah; I'm deeply thankful Phil took it on.
> >
> > Thanks to both of you for your support and apologize for going silent for the past couple of months.  I was in the heat of working on the packaging when I finally pushed my poor old i7 too hard and OOM'd when attempting to run too many simultaneous (kvm) VM's doing package building and forgot to shut down enough other programs to give it a chance of working.  This resulted in a couple of my VMs getting corrupted so I decided to wait until I got a new machine before attempting to proceed.  I got the new system up and running and sorted out the corrupted VMs over the holidays.  Now I'm starting to ramp back up on finishing up a first cut of the packages which dovetails nicely with Dave's efforts above.  So while we're not there yet, progress is being made...
> >
> >
> >
> > tim
> > --
> > tim Rowledge; tim at rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
> > Strange OpCodes: D: Detonate
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Phil
> 
> 
> tim
> --
> tim Rowledge; tim at rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
> Useful random insult:- Always loses battles of wits because he's unarmed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 17:32:21 -0700
> From: Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda at gmail.com>
> To: vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> Subject: [Vm-dev] MacOS python2.7
> Message-ID: <94EB2D5A-EDD9-495A-8629-2B1C18533C2A at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> If anyone has yet to upgrade their MacOS 12.x to 12.3 then please could you take a copy of /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework ? Virtend still uses v 2.7 and Apple dropped it in the 12.3 upgrade. The copy would save me a fair amount of work building it myself.
> 
> _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone)
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Vm-dev mailing list
> Vm-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/vm-dev
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Vm-dev Digest, Vol 191, Issue 4
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