Squeak-dev February 1998

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110 participants
320 discussions

re: thou shalt put the scrollbar on the left
by Craig Latta 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

Thanks for the background, Dan! > Scroll bars started on the left in a number of systems at Xerox > PARC for a very good reason -- namely it is where most of the text > is when you work with short lines. If you're working in certain languages like English, of course, which I assume PARC was. :) > From the earliest days, Smalltalk used flop-out scroll-bars to economize > on screen real estate. Flop-out scroll bars do not work on the right > because they obscure the left side of the next pane over, where you do > all your quick recognition. That's very interesting. As someone who does one-hand pointing with the right hand, with copious screen real estate, the cognitive dissonance of "reaching over" to the left cancels those benefits for me. It feels as awkward to me as reaching over something I'm looking at in "real life" with my arm to manipulate it (but not quite as awkward as this sentence :). I get a similar feeling of unnecessary occlusion (in real life, my right arm would be blocking what I'm trying to see). It's almost as bad for me as using a touch-screen interface where my fingers cover up what I'm trying to see, in the process of actuation. And I dislike flop-out scrollbars for several reasons, but that's a different topic. :) The irony is that I prefer two-handed interfaces anyway. > I'm not stuck on left-side scrolling -- I just want you to know the real history > and the reasons it has persisted. Thanks again! Unfortunately, I think the main reason things persist in Smalltalk is that there are usually more important things to do, and over long periods of time they rise above debate. I think scrollbars are a strong example of this. -C -- Craig Latta composer and computer scientist craig.latta(a)netjam.org www.netjam.org latta(a)interval.com Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]

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Re: Float bug toolkit: what the hash is this?
by Eliot & Linda 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

sqrmax(a)cvtci.com.ar wrote: [snip] > Moreover, even if they do have the same hash (due to design, > coincidence or whatever), I think that they should not answer true to an equality > cross-test, even if they have the 'same values'. Why? Why break something as simple and powerful as Smalltalk's mixed-mode arithmetic because certain number representations are approximations that must be used with care in certain contexts? What do the language designers have to say about the Number system? Dan? What do the numerical analysts have to say about floating-point and numbers? Dave? What do the usability/comprehensibility experts have to say? Alan? I absolutely concede that if one is using floating-point to compute results that are required to exhibit a given accuracy then one will have to be very aware of the representations' limitations. But I don't see that this means I have to quarantine more quotidian use. It appears to me that IEEE strives to be usable. Rounding-modes seem to be good enough to save embarrasment in many cases. For example, I tried the following in VisualWorks: 0.01 * 100.0 - 1.0 and I got 0.0. Not epsilon, but 0.0. This is presumably because some effort has gone into the design of rounding modes. Hence I rarely hang myself with IEEE. Does the fact that, if I tried very hard, I could hang myself imply that I have to write i := 0.0. [(i - 1.0) abs <= 1.0e-6] whileFalse: [self fret. self developAReallyHumongousUlcer. i := i + 0.1] instead of 0.0 to: 1.0 by: 0.1 do: [:i| self partyOnDude] ?? Yours, perplexed. _______________,,,^..^,,,_______________ Eliot Miranda, ParcPlace

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Re: Mailing List(s)
by Randal Schwartz 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

>>>>> "Billy" == Billy Turchin <billy(a)cc.gatech.edu> writes: Billy> Mark Guzdial wrote: >> >> http://c2.com:8080/ >> Oh, this site. the one that doesn't speak HTTP. Missing all the headers (including REQUIRED ones). Is there someone working on fixing this? It really freaks out the compliant browsers. Trying 204.119.10.254... Connected to c2.com. Escape character is '^]'. GET / HTTP/1.0 ***** headers are missing here ***** <head> <title> Welcome Visitors</title> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000" link="#ff1707"> <table width=100% border=0> <tr> <td align=left><h1><a href="?search=WelcomeVisitors"> Welcome Visitors</a></h1></td> <td align=right><img src="logo.gif"> </td> </tr> </table> <br clear=all> Squeak is a dialect of Smalltalk with a portable implementation, liberal license terms, open development model, and a unique <a href=PlaceInTheUniverse>PlaceInTheUniverse</a>. A growing community of Squeak developers and users meet here to share facts and pointers to other Squeak related websites. <p>About Squeak: <UL> <li> <a href=SqueakWebsites>SqueakWebsites</a> <li> <a href=DownloadSqueak>DownloadSqueak</a> <li> <a href=LearnSmalltalk>LearnSmalltalk</a> <li> <a href=WorkInProgress>WorkInProgress</a> <li> <a href=LiterateSqueaking>LiterateSqueaking</a> <li> <a href=PromoteSqueak>PromoteSqueak</a> <li> <a href=ImplementorResources>ImplementorResources</a> <li> <a href=ToolAndGoodies>ToolAndGoodies</a> <li> <aConnection closed by foreign host. Process telnet-c2.com 8080 exited abnormally with code 1 -- Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying Email: <merlyn(a)stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn(a)teleport.com) Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A> Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me

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RE: Mailing List(s)
by Alejandro F. Reimondo 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

Turchin wrote: > Using a Swiki would allow people to search for discussions >on a particular topic, or from a particular person, etc. These are >advantages not available with email discussions. > The web site can have a hierarchy of topics for discussions. This >would make it easy to find discussions on a particular subject, rather >then searching through a long list. There could be sections for >Announcements, Beginners, Morphic.....etc. And sections for "mark and showIt" ! And sections for "mark and fileIn" Provably a Squeak for all us. All in the same Squeak Space! Why not? anObject.

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re: thou shalt put the scrollbar on the left
by stp＠limbo.create.ucsb.edu 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

With respect to scroll bar placement, Craig wrote, > My preference would be for configurability. That's why I made it a separate file-in in the first place. If you look at the file, the right-side code is still there, only commented out. It might be better to have this set by a user preference. (It'll be in my next set of enhancements). With respect to look-and-feel in general, I'm not all that in love with the Wondows look either, but I've been getting disparaging comments about the old look and the flop-out scroll bars, so I figured that any more familiar and more "modern" L&F was an improvement. stp _ Stephen Travis Pope _ Center for Research in Electronic Art Technology (CREATE) _ Department of Music, Univ. of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB) _ stp(a)create.ucsb.edu, http://www.create.ucsb.edu/~stp/

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Re: Mailing List(s)
by Billy Turchin 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

Mark Guzdial wrote: > > http://c2.com:8080/ > Yes, but I was referring to a Q&A site for discussions. A place where someone can place a question or comment and others can respond. This would help avoid the large amount of mail coming from the mailing list because people could glance over the web site and read discussions that interest them, respond to them, or do nothing at all. If people chose to use this site as a discussion medium then the amount of email sent would be greatly reduced and we would not have to deal with huge Inboxes full of mail that we don't always care about or have the time to read. Using a Swiki would allow people to search for discussions on a particular topic, or from a particular person, etc. These are advantages not available with email discussions. With email if you don't save a message then you either can't refer to it again, or you try to find it at: http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/mail/squeak/, but with a Swiki you wouldn't have to worry about deleting it in the first place or storing it on your hard drive. The web site can have a hierarchy of topics for discussions. This would make it easy to find discussions on a particular subject, rather then searching through a long list. There could be sections for Announcements, Beginners, Morphic.....etc. I see numerous possibilties for such a site and I think it would benefit everyone from beginners to advanced developers. > >Is there a Swiki site for Squeak discussions available? I don't > >believe there is. Perhaps someone could host one. > > - Billy

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Re: Mailing List(s)
by stp＠limbo.create.ucsb.edu 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

> Is there any chance of somehow splitting the list? Having recently signed on to the list after some absence, I've also been thinking about how to better deliver information about Squeak with a higher signal-to-noise ratio (for signals that I'm interested in, that is). This was the motivation for originally splitting squeak-annc off from the main squeak list, but squeak-annc seems to be unused. The Monarch-generated web-page version of the mailing list looks very good, but it's about a month behind. What are readers current ideas about how to keep the "push" technology that many of you seem to like, but to make it easier to filter out long discussions of details that are lost on most of us hackers? How can we use Wiki or some other unique solution for this? stp _ Stephen Travis Pope _ Center for Research in Electronic Art Technology (CREATE) _ Department of Music, Univ. of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB) _ stp(a)create.ucsb.edu, http://www.create.ucsb.edu/~stp/

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Re: Morphic Windows and Shared Screens
by guzdial＠cc.gatech.edu 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

>We demo-ed a simple shared-screen facility at OOPSLA, and that demo >is in the current release. Here's how it works: > >1. all users start up a copy of the same exact image, then > opens a morphic world. I tried this, and it did work well, but there was one hitch -- all users must be running comparably fast machines. I hooked up a PowerMac 7600/132 and a PowerMac 7100/80, and the differences were enough that the two machines did get out-of-synch. Mark -------------------------- Mark Guzdial : Georgia Tech : College of Computing : Atlanta, GA 30332-0280 (404) 894-5618 : Fax (404) 894-0673 : guzdial(a)cc.gatech.edu http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/people/Faculty/Mark.Guzdial.html

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Mailing List(s)
by n.moray＠surrey.ac.uk 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

Is there any chance of somehow splitting the list? On the one hand, lone and beginners like I am find the problems andf oslutions proposed about practical algorithms (e.g. how do you rfesize a window?> Why do I get a funny printout?) very helpfuil both for learning andf for insight. On the other hand, the deep and profound discussions about writing new VMs, benchmark testing, etc., take an enormous time to handle eaxch morning - and a couple of hours if I have been away for a week. Is there any way we could divide the groups into two kinds of documents? I will stay oin the group - but I see from several people who have dropped out that the cost/vbenefot of having to sort the emails is a very high overhead. neville Work email: N.Moray(a)surrey.ac.uk Home email: nmoray(a)globalnet.co.uk send messages to both if Urgent Work address: DERA Professor of Applied Cognitive Psychology, Department of Psychology, University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 5XH United Kingdom. Phone number: +44-(0)1483-300-800 and ask for extension 2865 Fax: +44-(0)1483-32813 Home address: 10a Hampstead Hill Gardens, London NW3 2PL. Phone: +44-(0)171-431-4813 "Be well, do good work, and keep in touch" (Garrison Keiler)

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Re: Incongruent hash
by n.moray＠surrey.ac.uk 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

Even worse, in many European countries (and if I remember aright, in the ISO) the billions/milions/thousands separator is a space, so tat US 123,456,789.001 is written as 123 456 789,001 >However, our non-American colleagues might have fits over this one, >since in some locales the decimal "point" is written as a comma, and the >thousands/millions/billions separator is written as a period, e.g. > > 123,456.78 is written as 123.456,78 > >So building Point instances with a comma operator might cause problems >for people in such a locale. Just an observation... > >Bob Jarvis > >*************************** Attachment *********************************** >Date: 11 February 1998, 15:13:15 EST >>From Travis Griggs tgriggs at INTERNET > tgriggs(a)keyww.com > squeak at INTERNET > squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu >To: squeak at INTERNET > squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu >cc: recipien at INTERNET > recipient.list.not.shown:@ > >Reply-To squeak at INTERNET > squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu >Subject: Re: Incongruent hash > >Resent-Date: 11 Feb 1998 20:13:28 -0000 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >References: <04e9d1709130b28MAIL2(a)cvtci.com.ar> from "sqrmax(a)cvtci.com.ar" > at Feb 11, 98 10:09:18 am <v04003a0ab1079428ccc3(a)[9.2.186.178]> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Mailing-List: <squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu> archive/latest/750 >X-Loop: squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu >Resent-Sender: squeak-request(a)cs.uiuc.edu > > >David N. Smith wrote: > >> One thing that has always bugged me is the notation x@y. X is not AT y. >> We'd need another notation for forming vectors and the only thing that >> comes to mind offhand is -> which is as bad, but at least it looks like a >> vector, sort of. Binary creation methods: >> >> 2 -> 3 >> 2 -> 3 -> 4 > >I have never fully understood the use of @ either. I've always figured it had >some historical significance or was pulled out of some domain I wasn't familiar >with. I would much rather use the comma to build points from numbers. That's >what I as a highschool student was familiar with. Is this (e.g. 2,3) not the >common lay representation of a 2D point? > >Travis Griggs >Key Technology >tgriggs(a)keyww.com >To Smalltalk! - and Beyond! Work email: N.Moray(a)surrey.ac.uk Home email: nmoray(a)globalnet.co.uk send messages to both if Urgent Work address: DERA Professor of Applied Cognitive Psychology, Department of Psychology, University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 5XH United Kingdom. Phone number: +44-(0)1483-300-800 and ask for extension 2865 Fax: +44-(0)1483-32813 Home address: 10a Hampstead Hill Gardens, London NW3 2PL. Phone: +44-(0)171-431-4813 "Be well, do good work, and keep in touch" (Garrison Keiler)

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