Squeak-dev November 1999

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164 participants
545 discussions

Re: Fabrik, Morphic-Components
by Jesse Grosjean 29 Nov '99

29 Nov '99

Thanks for the help everyone, I found the paper, but I got a hardcopy, so I cant email it to any of you. Also I'm interested in helping to bring Fabrik to squeak as requesting in "Lets Get Bizzy". I'm still new to squeak so if anyone with more experience wants to jump in thatís great, but for the moment Iíd be happy to chop away at it. Dan, you said you would give some suggestions on how one might startÖPlease:). Is the original code around and available? If so that would allow me to understand things a lot better. Thanks again, Jesse Grosjean >From: Dan Ingalls <Dan.Ingalls(a)disney.com> >Reply-To: squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu >To: squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu >Subject: Re: Fabrik, Morphic-Components >Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 08:42:36 -0800 > >Folks - > >I have hardcopy for this paper and, until recently, I even had the old >PageMaker file. I'll try to track it down, as that includes all the >figures. > > - Dan > > >The ACM OOPSLA CDROM has not been available for at least a year. If you > >really need an older ACM article you can order a copy in various forms > >from the University of Washington ACM Depository: > >http://www.lib.washington.edu/rss/ > > > >-- Dwight > > > >Henrik Gedenryd wrote: > >> > >> on 99-11-20 04.55, David N. Smith (IBM) at dnsmith(a)watson.ibm.com >wrote: > >> > >> > There is a copy on the OOPSLA CD-ROM (which contains all OOPSLA > >> > papers through something like 1997). It should also be in the ACM > >> > electronic library, provided that you subscribe. > >> > > >> > I don't know of any other online copies, but it's a great paper about > >> > a great program and is well worth seeking out. > >> > > >> > Dave > >> > >> Unfortunately, the ACM site only has the full texts of papers from 1992 >or > >> so, and only tables of contents for earlier years (non-members see only >ToCs > >> for all years). It's a shame, since I have been looking for many of the > >> older papers. Where do you get the CD-ROM? > >> > >> Henrik > >> > >> < = > . > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Hierarchical Tree View (RE: Squeak built-in Help (was Re: Several beginner questions))
by Stewart MacLean 29 Nov '99

29 Nov '99

Hi Ali, I have found this view very useful in VisualWorks in the form of the WorkspaceOrganizer. I have ported it to VisualAge and was intending to port it to Squeak as soon as I got up to speed with Morphic. However there is no point in reinventing the wheel so I was wondering how your TreeView was comming on and whether it was close to release? Cheers, Stewart > -----Original Message----- > From: Ali Chamas [mailto:alichamas@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 4:48 PM > To: squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu > Cc: recipient.list.not.shown; @cs.uiuc.edu > Subject: Squeak built-in Help (was Re: Several beginner questions) > > > Hi Mike, > > --- Mike Thomas <miketh(a)ptmnet.com> wrote: > > > Short answer: No. I'm way to busy doing other > > exciting things and not a > > very > > > good writer as well (and English is not my native > > language). More than > > > enough reasons for me ... ;-) > > > > If I continue and learn Smalltalk and the library > > and you want to do some > > docs, ask for help and send me some notes - I do a > > lot of technical writing > > so I could get your notes into shape. > > Same here! I'm working on a new heirachial tree-view > Morph. The explore view uses one, but i've already > written one for Director which supports bitmap > association with particular node types/names, draws > tree stems, and allows configurable icon bitmaps (all > spaced dynamically), and i'm chipping away at having > one done real soon for Smalltalk and Squeak. It would > be great for Squeak to have built-in help, and the > expand/collapse tree-view is a great way to do it. > There would be general system topics, Smalltalk > topics/issues, Squeak specific listings, class > documentation etc. The view could be based on an > open-edit style which would allow continual additions > and creations to the collection (with I/O facilities). > Set's of notes could be filed out, posted, then read > into anyones image for distribuited help. > > When it's ready, would you consider (along with other > Squeakers? :1) to help with documenting areas of > Squeak? I'm sure amoung the community there would be a > complete knowledge base which could collectively > contribuited to a (finally) well documented, and > powerful system. > > Cheers... > Ali. > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. > Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com >

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Re: Intervals
by Andrew P. Black 29 Nov '99

29 Nov '99

Dan writes: >Would you (or anyone else here -- volunteers?) be willing to examine the >senders >and change those that need it to rangeIncludes: before we do this? Gosh, you guys work fast. I'd be happy to look at some classes for calls to interval includes:, if they haven't all been inspected already. But I don't want to re-do work that's already been done. >I think the proper fix for the range interpretation is to replace the calls >that expect a range interpretation with, say, #rangeIncludes: or some better >choice that you might recommend. I think that a better fix might be to introduce a new class that represents a range, which no step size expressed or implied, but with the ability to be open or closed at each end. Something like x := Range closed: 3 closed: 7 => [ 3 .. 7 ] y := Range open: 4 closed: 9 => ( 4 .. 9 ] z := Range closed: 4 open: 2 => the empty range x join: y => [ 3 .. 9 ] x meet: y => ( 4 .. 7 ] This sounds like an interesting student project, but I think it would be worth doing only if there is actually a use for it. Ranges aren't collections (well, maybe they are infinite collections of reals?) and they aren't magnitudes (because they are only a partial order). Would classes like these actually be useful in the graphic methods? My assumption was that the new method for interval|includes: had been written to speed up some code in the windowing system, since without it interval|includes: uses the method in Collection which actually runs the do: Andrew

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Dialect Ports
by Chris 29 Nov '99

29 Nov '99

I was wondering if there was any info or how-tos on porting from one dialect to another in relation to smalltalk-80. To be more specific, I want to port some code from Dolphin smalltalk for windows into Squeak. Is there a place on the Swikis that could educate me on this manner? Does anyone have first hand experience they're willing to share? Please reply to me personally to keep list traffic down, and I'll post the best responses/summary to the list in case anyone is interested. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

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Re: Shouldn't 2 hash = 2.0 hash? [LONG]
by David N. Smith (IBM) 29 Nov '99

29 Nov '99

At 17:33 -0600 11/28/99, R. A. Harmon wrote: >I found the following: > > 2 = 2.0 -> true > 2 hash = 2.0 hash ->false > >I think this is a bug. Is it? Good question. The blue book says: "... Any two objects that are equal must return the same value for #hash. Unequal values may or may not return equal values for hash. Typically, this integer is used as an index to locate the object in an indexed collection..." [Pg 96]. (I cannot find any reference in the blue book to another hashing rule: The hash value of an object must be constant over time. There is yet another hashing rule that is more practical: Hash values should be small integers.) So, by the Blue Book definition, what you observe is a bug. Should it be? Does it really mean that two instances of wildly differing classes must answer equal hashes when they compare equal? Why does the Blue Book make this restriction? All of the discussion in the Blue Book about hashing is in the context of looking up values in a hashed collection. Did they intend that someone might put a float 2.0 into a hashed collection and then look it up with an integer 2? Do people do it? Maybe there is some other reason for this rule, but I think it might just be incompletely stated. Consider these cases: * An employee object compares equal using the employee number. Should (anEmployee = 899538) answer true or purposely hash the same? I think the hashes can be safely different. The two classes are quite separate in intent and use, and the fact they compare equal is an accident. * In another implementation, employee objects are represented as instances of classes in a hierarchy. Should aRetiredEmployee compare equal to anActiveEmployee if, by accident, they have the same employee number? Sure! Should they have the same hash value? Of course. The classes here are closely related and should follow the rule. In fact, making a new employee and then trying to find it in a dictionary of existing employees would find a nasty bug. So, maybe the rule should state something about closely related objects answering the same hash, but I don't see a good and simple way to say it. Are subclasses of Number closely related enough that they should follow the rule? Most Smalltalk systems do what you expect. In order to keep hash fast, IBM Smalltalk simply truncates all floats to integers and use the hash of that. It's an ugly solution, IMHO. That means, for example, that a dictionary which uses floats as keys may have just a few unique hash values for a large number of entries; it can end up doing a sequential search instead of a simple probe with the hash. One could make the hash operation more complex, so that any non-zero fractional part is used in the hash, but then the hash operation slows down. Many systems do that and have a slower floating point hash, harmful or not. There are similar problems with scaled decimal values. So, should the rule be followed even if it's more expensive to do so? Are subclasses of Number closely related enough that they should follow the rule regardless? Are the 'same' values represented as different classes ever used as equivalent keys in a hashed collection? In my view, and assuming I'm not missing something obvious, the answer is no. I'd argue that having (2.0 = 2) answer false is better than forcing the hashes to be equal. Besides, comparing floats is a sin one should not encourage. I'd rather see #= answer false and that some other method be used for 'has equivalent value'. While I did write that floating-point hash method, Squeak didn't follow the rule before I wrote it, which is why I didn't make the new version follow it either. But you did ask a good question, and I didn't really answer it. Anyone have a better answer? Dave _______________________________ David N. Smith IBM T J Watson Research Center Hawthorne, NY _______________________________ Any opinions or recommendations herein are those of the author and not of his employer.

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Squeak & Director
by Ali Chamas 29 Nov '99

29 Nov '99

Hi Jan! --- Jan Theodore Galkowski <algebraist(a)salonmember.com> wrote: > But the Other goes along the lines of some > things talked a lot about here, the idea of > providing a richer, better Director... Viva Revolution!!!! I've noticed a (small?) amount of the Squeak community having been involved with Director. Macromedia created an industry standard with Director, roped alot of people into upgrades, and along with Authorware & Flash, seemed to be the dominant provider of multimedia development solutions. You only have to look at how fast Squeak loads, how many different operating systems it runs on, the features (from BitBlts to AliceWorlds) plus it's future direction to realise how significant a replacement it could/should be for the developer community. Imagine if the next generation of multimedia developers were based in Smalltalk, not some offspring of BASIC (hi Lingo). Imagine Smalltalk being the future "industry standard" language for multimedia development, and Squeak being the environment!? Smalltalk is more elegant than any scripting language could be, and just think, the same open-sourced nature of a Smalltalk image would be your content development environment too!! Perhaps this is what the original vision of "Smalltalk, meant for children to learn programming" was really about? It would empower developers with so much more freedom to create. Many Director developers i've known have become quite good at Director, and turned it into a little application development environment. They end up hating it because of the closed nature of the environment, and the lack of "real" powerful programming tools. I would much rather see an industry of open-sourced Smalltalkers, than a closed group of "knowledge is power, and my lingo is bigger than your lingo" Directors. Just letting off 3 years of steam, ;-r Ali. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

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[BUG] "alphabetize" message categories broken
by Doug Way 29 Nov '99

29 Nov '99

This is a bug in the latest 2.7alpha. (updates through 1660) If you open a system browser in either Morphic or MVC, and try to select "alphabetize" in the message category pane pop-up menu, you'll get a "MessageNotUnderstood: alphabetizeMessageCategories" walkback. (I guess this menu item is a new feature, it wasn't in 2.6. Anyway, it would be very useful if it worked.) - Doug Way dway(a)mat.net I'd call myself an artist If I could make these feelings clear But there's a million things to think about When you're cutting off your ear - Scott Miller

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How to force a GC
by Jarvis, Robert P. 29 Nov '99

29 Nov '99

Can someone please clue me in on how to force a GC, either full or incremental? I've tried things like ObjectMemory new fullGC but this just gives a MNU dialog. I'm sure it's something obvious which has escaped me. Thanks. Bob Jarvis Compuware @ Timken

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[Network] Some questions
by Reinier van Loon 29 Nov '99

29 Nov '99

Hi all, maybe someone has one or more answers and let's me know: (environment is Squeak 2.6 on NT4.0/SP4) 1) PWS>>reply: When replying using PWS (PWS>>reply:) I found that on a local host one does not need to send PWS success. PWS contentHTML; crlf. But when I tested the stuff over the Internet it didn't work. I had to add the two lines mentioned before. Why? 2) PWS/Sockets When testing on a local host I found that clicking too fast in a browser Squeak would not respond anymore. Any clues? 3) Low on memory When Squeak runs low on memory it puts up a dialog. I accidentely clicked besides the dialog and the dialog vanished behind the browser. I could not find a way to get the dialog back. I had to quit the image. Any solutions? 4) ServerActions vs. WebPages Conceptually I have trouble understanding the need/use of ServerActions with regard to a web page. After all, a web server responds with pages and not actions. For example: ChatPage is a subclass of ServerAction, but to say that a ChatPage is-a ServerAction... Has someone pointers to standard solutions/concepts for designing a web server with many different pages (i.e. where each page is formed differently and behaves differently at the client side). Smalltalk embedded in HTML is not suitable for my purposes, I think (maintaining a customer and order database and several reports). Anyone? Thanks in advance, Reinier.

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Weak references
by Gerardo Richarte 29 Nov '99

29 Nov '99

Isn't it time to start using Weak referenes (WeakArrays, Dictionaries, etc) in Squeak base, where needed? My bigest concern is Dependencies management (DependentsFields) and Symbols' known Symbols collections. I think that using Weak references will make it easier to use things like that (specially references) Weakeable Bye! (don't forget it!) Richie++ -- A390 1BBA 2C58 D679 5A71 - 86F9 404F 4B53 3944 C2D0 Investigacion y Desarrollo - CoreLabs - Core SDI http://www.core-sdi.com --- For a personal reply use gera(a)core-sdi.com

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