Squeak-dev January 2000

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131 participants
468 discussions

Re: fun and empowerment
by Tom Ayerst 27 Jan '00

27 Jan '00

Dave, I know that feeling. You got a better response than I did. I just received a load of blank looks, I really don't think they grasped the idea that there might be other languages than C, C++ or Perl (Java is pretty radical). Tom "David T. Lewis" wrote: > Just to introduce a contrary view, I would describe myself as a middle level manager at a large international corporation. I do Squeak in my free time because it's fun. > > In the one and only case in my experience in which I advocated using > Smalltalk for a significant project, the "technical" folks on the > project voted the idea down in favor of Java, which they believed to > have advantages in performance, type safety, and market acceptance. > Draw what conclusions you like from this, but don't a priori assume > that "management" is the source of all difficulties. > > Dave -- "It's not what you don't know that kills you, ... it's what you know that ain't so." - Mr Thompkins

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Re: fun and empowerment
by Charles-A. Rovira 27 Jan '00

27 Jan '00

Hello Michael, Smalltalk has not yet "missed the boat" because, they're all still tied to the dock. Granted the job of "selling" Smalltalk to developers and project managers was definitely NOT helped by the ParcPlace/Digitalk/Object[expletive deleted] merger/acquisition/nervous dentist investors/divestitures/CinCom acquisitions for a song debacle. But Smalltalk is not dying anymore than the Macintosh because there's too much ground swell support, market mass and sheer cussedness by people willing to slip one by their bosses. As for Tcl/Tk, it has its uses just like COBOL and Fortran do. I can't knock it any more than Perl. But I wouldn't write an accounting system in Perl any more than I'd write an expert system in Tcl/Tk. And where does Smalltalk fit into all this? The projects that I've seen that were successful use it as the great glue that binds everything together. As long as that's what you need, you can achieve results faster and better in Smalltalk than in anything else and that's what I see as its niche market. Its a BIG niche with the internet, the web, client-server middleware, ODBL, relational and object databases. Thta's where the 'selling' has to succeed... -Charles-A. Michael Chean wrote: > My experience also parallels Jerome's. Because of my inexperience I am not > a very strong advocate for Smalltalk, but just the task of convincing my > engineer friends to look outside their comfort zone has proven impossible. > My friend at JPL considers Smalltalk as having missed the boat, which seems > to be the case. When I mentioned that I was following this list he > suggested I look at Tcl/Tk instead.

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Re: fun and empowerment
by Paul McDonough 27 Jan '00

27 Jan '00

Aw heck, Michael, stick around. This is a fun place! ---------- >From: "Michael Chean" <Michael_Chean(a)email.msn.com> >To: <squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu> >Subject: Re: fun and empowerment >Date: Thu, Jan 27, 2000, 11:42 AM > > My experience also parallels Jerome's. Because of my inexperience I am not > a very strong advocate for Smalltalk, but just the task of convincing my > engineer friends to look outside their comfort zone has proven impossible. > My friend at JPL considers Smalltalk as having missed the boat, which seems > to be the case. When I mentioned that I was following this list he > suggested I look at Tcl/Tk instead. > > >

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Resizing a BookMorph
by Scott Wallace 27 Jan '00

27 Jan '00

>>3) How do I resize BookMorphs. I choose resize, get a yellow blob, aim it at >>the edges click and it disappears!? > >As far as I know, it's not possible. The problem is resizing >everything inside as well, but perhaps a more wise Morphic-er can >answer. Rather than having its own inherent size, a standard BookMorph dynamically adjusts its size such that it precisely encloses the contents it is currently displaying. (In AlignmentMorph terminology, it uses "shrinkWrap" resizing.) If you're looking at a BookMorph and you want it to appear larger or smaller, simply resize its current *page* (via the page's halo,) and the BookMorph will obligingly resize to fit around it. That will accomplish what you're after -- but only as long as you don't flip the page! If you want *every* page of the book to assume the new size, request "make all pages this size". Then the book will remain the same size as you flip from page to page. (When you've constructed a book more or less linearly, all pages are likely already to be the same size, so the issue won't arise. But if you've patched the book together from disparate sources, the issue can be very real, and you will be thankful for the ability to reconfigure all pages to be the same size.) One can easily imagine wanting other sizing behaviors for Book-like morphs, and indeed some alternatives are already currently available, though little-used and hence likely to be problematical. For example, by manually changing the hResizing and vResizing properties of a BookMorph to be #rigid, you can suppress the "shrinkWrap" behavior, but without further work you'll have adverse display artifacts because you'll find that oversize pages obtrude beyond the book's edges, etc. Using #spaceFill rather than #rigid will bring about somewhat different behavior. None of these is likely to be completely satisfactory at present. Since the BookMorph has emerged as a primary unit of exchange for media in Squeak, we probably need to retool it to handle a wider variety of needs. BookMorph's patchwork evolution has resulted in a rather idiosyncratic collection of options offered in its menu, and the shrink-wrap behavior that is more-or-less hard-wired frequently causes confusion. -- Scott

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Re: [ENH] (?) Pretty Printing
by demiourgos＠smalltalk.org 27 Jan '00

27 Jan '00

On Thu, 20 January 2000, Stephan Rudlof wrote: > > Doug Way wrote: > > > > Basically, I really like the idea of pretty printing (standard > > formatting), but I think the pretty printing in Squeak just isn't quite > > "there yet". If it were further improved, I'd probably use it all the > > time. > > > > I'd look forward to any improvements that Les and/or Dean might make. > > (Heck, maybe I'll work on it at some point.) Of course, an ideal pretty > > printing format is a somewhat subjective thing, and if someone is actually > > moving it forward, it'd be interesting to have some discussions on > > readability, indentation, etc., on this list. > > I think there needn't be just *one* ideal format, but such a discussion > could give hints how to format to get mostly readable code with such a > formatter - and not readable code should be a hint to think about the > programming style then. What about the idea of having a standard pretty printer, but using stylized comments to direct it to format things in a specified way rather than following its rules? Perhaps the "stylized comments" might adopt some of the verbs from XSL or HTML? --jtg > > I would like to have some parameters which control the behavior of a > pretty print formatter and allow different styles of formatting: > preferably with very few good default styles. > > I also would like to have a _standard_ formatting style resulting from a > deep discussion to use for code examples in e.g. eMails, tutorials and > books. Then there would coexist _one_ commonly used style and the > alternative styles for individual use. > > > P.S.: 'I would like to have ...' denotes wishes, not claims. > -- > Stephan Rudlof (sr(a)evolgo.de) > "Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. > You can't simply say, 'Today I will be brilliant.'" > -- Kirk, "The Ultimate Computer", stardate 4731.3 ______________________________________________________ Jan Theodore Galkowski www.smalltalk.org/ http://www.scguild.com/usr/1707I.html demiourgos(a)smalltalk.org www.marssociety.org/ ********************************************** PGP Key Fingerprint: 2757 F86D AA51 677D 38D7 964B 9A8D 7852 A494 3790 ********************************************** Get my Public Key from my home page at: http://home.stny.rr.com/algebraist/ ********************************************** ______________________________________________ Get free e-mail at http://www.britannica.com

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RE: fun and empowerment
by Jerome E. Garcia 27 Jan '00

27 Jan '00

> -----Original Message----- > From: David T. Lewis [mailto:lewis@mail.msen.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 2:03 AM > To: squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu > Subject: Re: fun and empowerment > > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 05:46:10AM -0500, Charles-A. Rovira wrote: > > Right, > > > > can you imagine the spaghetti crap code if Dilbert's PHB tried > to code. Puh-leze! > > > > I think they recruit managers by looking under rocks for the > lower life forms that went after MBAs rather than doing anything > > useful with their time in school. > > > <snip> > > > > -Charles-A. > > > > Craig Latta wrote: > > > > > Hmm. I guess this means that more Squeakers ought to > go into management (this is left as an exercise for the reader :). > > > > > > -C > > > > > > -- > > > Craig Latta > > > > Just to introduce a contrary view, I would describe myself as a > middle level manager at a large international > corporation. I do Squeak in my free time because it's fun. > > In the one and only case in my experience in which I advocated using > Smalltalk for a significant project, the "technical" folks on the > project voted the idea down in favor of Java, which they believed to > have advantages in performance, type safety, and market acceptance. > Draw what conclusions you like from this, but don't a priori assume > that "management" is the source of all difficulties. > > Dave > > Not to be a traitor to my kind, technical, but in multiple cases in my work experience, the technical types were the problem when it came to voting down Smalltalk. In each case it was the very skilled C and C++ programmers who believed Smalltalk was inadequate and convinced management. Several went to the extent of threatening to quit if they had to code in Smalltalk. Jerome

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Re: Camp Smalltalk -- Camp Squeak!
by Stephen T. Pope 27 Jan '00

27 Jan '00

Eric Arseneau wrote: > > I thought the purpose of the camp was to augment aspects of Smalltalk. > Considering that Squeak is part of that community, and vice versa, I don't > see the need for a "sister" event. I think it would be very good to have it > happen at the same time under the same roof. Well, the intention is not to "dilute" the efforts that have lead to the organization of the camp, but rather to have a fully-open two-day Squeak discussion that is centered around Squeak-specific questions such as those I suggested in the draft agenda. The agenda of Camp Smalltalk is larger, inter-dialect issues such as ANSI and SIF. As the San Diego Camp is "by invitation-only" I'd still like to entertain (and invite to) a Squeak weekend! > >Does anyone want to suggest agenda items for "Camp Squeak" ?? > > > >How about: > > Jitter and a modularized VM > > Portable MIDI plug-ins > > SMS and an OODB for Squeak > > Platform look-and-feel > > CM Tools -- stp Stephen Travis Pope stp(a)create.ucsb.edu -- http://www.create.ucsb.edu/~stp

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RE: Multiple Returns, was Re: Common Lisp style macros in Smalltalk?
by Alan Knight 27 Jan '00

27 Jan '00

At 08:18 AM 27.01.2000 -0500, Vassili Bykov wrote: > > From: demiourgos(a)smalltalk.org [mailto:demiourgos@smalltalk.org] > > But I have wondered from time to time -- not having deep process-based > > experience in Smalltalk (applications instead) -- how one might go about > > implementing coroutines or continuations in the manner of Scheme. Or > > are these things too far out of the Smalltalk model? > >I implemented continuations for Squeak a couple of year ago. Nobody seemed >particularly impressed, so even if they are not far out of the Smalltalk >implementation, they are far out of the Smalltalk thinking. > >--Vassili Blocks with returns in Smalltalk are pretty close to passing continuations, and so the typical Smalltalk thinking would probably be to use blocks for these purposes. I know I find it easier to think in those terms than in terms of continuation-passing. Once upon a time, Anthony Lander and Jon Hylands implemented a Prolog in Smalltalk using this kind of technique. It passed blocks within blocks within blocks around, and backtracking was implemented through block return. -- Alan Knight [|] knight(a)acm.org The Object People 613.225.8812(v) 613.225.5943(f)

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RE: Camp Smalltalk -- Camp Squeak!
by Ralph Johnson 27 Jan '00

27 Jan '00

For more information, there is a Camp Smalltalk wiki at http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/CampSmalltalk I think it would be great for Squeakers to get together in advance. I bet it would great to have a Squeak-specific camp sometime in the future. Perhaps Camp Squeak at Disney. For Camp Smalltalk, we are trying to focus on things that will help all Smalltalkers, so we can get as many of them together as possible. I expect one of the main benefits of Camp Smalltalk will be getting ideas from each other. Note that Paul Baumann is hoping that the "binary interchange" project will grow into a complete CM system. So, those interested in a good CM system for Squeak might look at that project. Afterwards, we are going to put our results on the web. I expect that Camp Smalltalk will just be the start of most of these projects If you are interested in coming, you need to e-mail me (johnson(a)cs.uiuc.edu) so that you will be put on the mailing list. -Ralph

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RE: Multiple Returns, was Re: Common Lisp style macros in Smallta lk?
by Jarvis, Robert P. (Contingent) 27 Jan '00

27 Jan '00

OK, I'll exhibit my ignorance :-). What are continuations, and what are they useful for? Same questions for coroutines. Bob Jarvis Compuware @ Timken > -----Original Message----- > From: Vassili Bykov [SMTP:vassili@objectpeople.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 8:19 AM > To: squeak(a)cs.uiuc.edu > Subject: RE: Multiple Returns, was Re: Common Lisp style macros in > Smalltalk? > > > From: demiourgos(a)smalltalk.org [mailto:demiourgos@smalltalk.org] > > But I have wondered from time to time -- not having deep process-based > > experience in Smalltalk (applications instead) -- how one might go about > > implementing coroutines or continuations in the manner of Scheme. Or > > are these things too far out of the Smalltalk model? > > I implemented continuations for Squeak a couple of year ago. Nobody > seemed > particularly impressed, so even if they are not far out of the Smalltalk > implementation, they are far out of the Smalltalk thinking. > > --Vassili

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