Squeak-dev June 2001

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122 participants
362 discussions

Re: BankAccount Tutorial
by Rosemary Michelle Simpson 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

On Sat, 30 Jun 2001, Greg A. Woods wrote: > [ On Saturday, June 30, 2001 at 10:43:17 (-0400), Rosemary Michelle Simpson wrote: ] > > Subject: Re: BankAccount Tutorial > > > > However, it makes sense to stay with the Squeak 2.8 that is on the CD > > while you are working with the book and its exercises/example code. When > > learning a new language, especially one as different from most as is > > Squeak, it seems wise to not change the language version in mid-stream. > > Having said that I must confess that I jumped all the way to the 3.1 alpha > > because I wanted the "class comments with it" facility. > > it may be best to avoid unnecessary change when learning a _new_ > language, but because i already had some exposure to squeak, and more or > less knew the basics of smalltalk from long ago, i had already upgraded > to 3.0 even before i bought the book and i don't have a 2.8 image at the > moment.... > > > Still, I kept the > > 2.8 image and use it in conjunction with the book. > > (does a "current" vm work with the older image? is that a goal?) I have two separate folders with completely separate systems including the VMs - one contains the 2.8 system (image, VM, etc) from the CD plus all my work with the book and the other contains the 3.1 system will all my work on ConceptLab. R.

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Re: OT: Invention v. Innovation
by Tim Rowledge 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

Henrik Gedenryd wrote: > > Andrew C. Greenberg wrote: > > > Forgive me, but I am in need of some solid authority and references > > relating the importance of incremental invention or innovation, as > > compared to pioneering and revolutionary invention. In particular, is > > there any consensus among authorities regarding the relative virtues of > > the two forms of creativity or their interactions? The distinction I was taught at Imperial was:- invention is creating something new innovation is making something new actually exist as a presence in some suitable marketplace. i.e. having a good idea is all very well but it does little good until you can obtain it some currency. To stretch the point a little, whilst it was only in PARC, Smalltalk was an invention, once it spread around (ParcPlace, Digitalk, etc) it was an innovation. > I think I agree with Alan that attending to small improvements (pink work) > will indeed impede progress on a greater scale (blue), by detracting > attention etc. The recent Internet craze probably held back genuine cs > advances for 5 years or so, because everyone focused on exploiting old > technologies instead of coming up with new ones. Bad for invention/progress, > good for the economy. Actually I'd argue that much of the waste was precisely because almost nobody involved had any idea of history and spent all their effort on 'inventing' stuff that could be looked up in bazillions of standard texts. A pretty typical process in my experience with CS types.... smart young CS grad insists on 'inventing' a sort algorithm every time instead of using a standard one and getting on with the important stuff. People with engineering backgrounds tend to understand the idea of usig standard parts; they rarely make custom nuts and bolts. tim

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Re: Very slow performance on faster machine
by Lex Spoon 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

John Hinsley <jhinsley(a)telinco.co.uk> wrote: > The defrag issue does seem a bit wierd. But I wonder if a delete, defrag > and re-install would help? Or you might like to try stopping the > management server. I'm not sure what Oracle does on/to NT, but I know it > wants to play about with the kernel (and grab a huge amount of RAM) on > Linux. -- Which (as well as my calculating that I'd never, ever be able > to afford to run it commercially) is why I use MySQL. But that's another > story. The changes file would naturally get very fragmented, as every "do-it" or method accept will add a record to the end of it. Then again, the changes file is only used if you are browsing code. 2+2 print-it should still be fast. Opening menus and such should still be fast. Lex

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Re: Mac OS X VM (was Re: New VMs)
by Marcel Weiher 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

On Thursday, June 28, 2001, at 07:24 Uhr, Doug Way wrote: > So, to get the VM I downloaded and untarred Squeak3.0.1-MacOSX- > VM.tar.gz, and it contained all the sources, but I just wanted the > compiled VM so I then untarred the Frameworks subpackage as per the > Readme instructions. Is it a problem that it includes source? > I tried double-clicking the resulting CocoaSqueak app (which had the > correct Squeaky VM icon), but it only bounced for a second and didn't > run. (Also, it's only 60K or so which was odd.) Drag-and-dropping an > .image on it didn't work either. As you correctly figured out, those 60K contain virtually no code. > I then realized I probably needed to move the Squeak.framework file > into the framework search path, which the Readme mentions. Both Squeak.framework and SqueakAppKit.framework. > I tried moving it to the suggested directories (I had to create them > both), Yes, sadly, the default OS-X install doesn't create those. > but I'm not sure if they were actually in my framework search path. Either /Library/Frameworks/Squeak.framework /Library/Frameworks/SqueakAppKit.framework or ~/Library/Frameworks/Squeak.framework ~/Library/Frameworks/SqueakAppKit.framework should work. > (I checked my environment variables but didn't see one which looked > like the right one. Yes, I am a Cocoa newbie, but I'm familiar with > Unix.) The framework search path is not encoded in environment variables. > Double-clicking the VM still didn't work. That should have done the trick. > Anyway, do all Cocoa apps need a separate .framework file? Yes and no. Frameworks are the 'default' method for bundling functionality (code / shared libraries) in MacOS-X. Look at /System/Library/Frameworks and /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/, almost all the higher level functionality in MacOS-X is there. They differ from shared libraries in that they can contain both code and non-code resources, including documentation, headers, data-files, user-interface elements, squeak images/projects, whatever and also have a versioning mechanism so multiple version of frameworks can exist at the same time and be used by different applications. Since just about all applications on MacOS-X require at least some of these frameworks, and Cocoa itself comes as (several) frameworks all Cocoa applications do, in fact, 'require' separate framework 'files', just like programs on other platforms usually require (system) shared libraries. Not all Cocoa programs bring their own framework files, however. Some programs simply aren't themselves modular, all the relevant code is heaped into one single executable (apart from references to system libraries). However larger pieces of software tend to also have code that is split into individual frameworks (shared libraries), just like the system code. I consider this (i.e. system-supported modularity) a Good Thing. As a matter of fact, absence of this or a comparable mechanism is one of the biggest problems I have with Squeak at this time. It's a bit like dynamic messaging: difficult to do without once you've become used to it. When functionality is packaged as frameworks it ceases to be private to your particular application but instead becomes available for others as well. For example, OmniWeb makes virtually all of the functionality of a web-browser available as separate frameworks. Mail.app references a Message.framework for mail-delivery that is also available to other applications, ScreenSaver functionality is available as a framework, etc. Apart from the utilitarian effect, this sort of packaging also has a positive (and difficult to describe) effect on the code you write, well, at least on the code I write. Together with Objective-C categories (which allow you to add methods to pre-existing classes), you can really split your code into small, self contained units that do one thing, and only one thing, well. Applications then usually become a matter of a little glue to tie several frameworks together, possiby with some UI, but maybe also without. That is why CocoaSqueak.app is only 60K, it really just ties together Squeak.framework (base interpreter and faceless I/O), SqueakAppKit.framework (GUI, interaction, media) and Cocoa's application-support. This opens up a whole range of possibilities. For example, you can very easily build your own Squeak-based Cocoa-applications, using a custom icon, custom code etc. but sharing all the common Squeak VM stuff via the framework. The framework could also be a centralized repository for other shared Squeak resources, such as the sources file or even one or several 'standard' image files. Squeak-Cocoa apps could then consist of the small binary (as you noted about 60K), some custom native classes or plugins and maybe a project file. A Squeak Shell ( sqsh? ) could benefit from the same mechanism, with a small executable linking in the framework and thus being able to execute with a standard image. Of course, the usability of this depends on being able to load the 'standard' image file quickly. CocoaSqueak already maps the image-file into memory, so once its there loading time is negligible with Mach's very lazy virtual memory subsystem, and Andreas hinted that we might soon be able to do without going through the image each time on load if we manage to get the same VM address. However, as you note, the problem with this approach is that it makes installation more difficult, requiring detailed instructions or an installer program. (I figured that the average Squeak user at this point is savvy enough to deal with it...). Anyway, MacOS-X also provides a mechanism for placing an application's frameworks inside the application wrapper (applications and frameworks are both kinds of 'Bundles', a specific directory structure for packing executable code and resources). Of course, this hides the frameworks again, making them, once again, unavailable for others. Also, this packaging method requires some voodoo that isn't entirely well supported by Apple's development tools at this point, which is why I haven't gotten around to it yet. However, creating a combined (and possibly binary-only) CocoaSqueak package is something that is on the list of things to do, but hasn't gotten done (along with lots of other things) because I've had a few other things on the table recently. What would then be great is a mechanism for making those frameworks sharable as well. I hope this answers you question. Marcel

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Newbie Questions
by Steve Wart 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

I find myself with a welcome surfeit of spare time. Therefore I have the following questions: 1. I have some stuff (a bibliography) in a HyperCard format, but I am now using Windows. Has someone created something in Squeak that I can use to port this stack, or at least retrieve the data? [nb: I did a google search but was not able to find anything definitive, although clearly the relationship between HyperCard and Squeak has been discussed in the past]. 2. Is there a CalendarMorph or anything approaching a widget that I could use for selecting dates (e.g. as a filter in a mail application). 3. Is there a way to programmatically minimize the main window in Squeak? I have other questions but now that I have all this time, I think I have the means to answer them for myself. Thanks, Steve

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RE: Luna/Borg Look for Squeak ?
by Joshua D. Boyd 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

Go for the confess option. I like reading long detailed reports of subsystems. -- Joshua Boyd On Fri, 29 Jun 2001, Jim Benson wrote: > Confess. What in the world are you doing? [ The reply might be long, but > may be entertaining if you're easily amused ] > > Oh my, what in the world have you done? [ Said in the tone of a mother > scolding a bad child. This would produce a more concise, almost whimsical > tour of the Zurgle world ] > > Shut your mouth, and crawl back into your hole [ I fully expect this to be > the most popular choice ] > > Jim > > > > >

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Re: GraphicsFile guru needed!
by Ned Konz 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

On Friday 29 June 2001 20:11, John Hinsley wrote: > 0 to: f height-1 do: [ :y | add the temps: 0 to: f height-1 do: [ :y | | color index | Change set with fixes enclosed (minus FileList menu stuff). -- Ned Konz currently: Stanwood, WA email: ned(a)bike-nomad.com homepage: http://bike-nomad.com

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Re: Out of space + other flakiness
by Bob Arning 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:13:41 -0700 Ross Boylan <RossBoylan(a)stanfordalumni.org> wrote: >I've hunted around for tools >or convenience methods that would give me a more complete picture of >object memory--all I have now is the # free bytes ( '1,148,708 bytes >available'). I'd like to know how much memory it thinks its using, >the amount each class's instances are taking and such. Ross, Try Smalltalk spaceTallyTo: 'somefile.txt'. or Smalltalk printSpaceAnalysis: 1000 on: 'STspace.text0'. BTW, 1.1 meg free is not a lot. Cheers, Bob

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Re: Fw: Fw: Very slow performance on faster machine
by Bob Arning 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

Tim, Have you tried giving Squeak more memory? Free space of only 3.4% seems quite low. Cheers, Bob On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 21:24:19 -0500 "Tim Cuthbertson" <timcuth(a)bellsouth.net> wrote: >> Here are my VM statistics. It does not appear to be doing too many full >> GC's. >> >> uptime 57h54m17s >> memory 18,423,976 bytes >> old 16,357,628 bytes (88.8%) >> young 1,434,376 bytes (7.8%) >> used 17,792,004 bytes (96.6%) >> free 631,972 bytes (3.4%) >> GCs 422 (493975ms between GCs) >> full 1 totalling 388ms (0.0% uptime), avg 388.0ms >> incr 421 totalling 530ms (0.0% uptime), avg 1.0ms >> tenures 0 >> Since last view 201 (193ms between GCs) >> uptime 38.8s >> full 0 totalling 0ms (0.0% uptime) >> incr 201 totalling 254ms (1.0% uptime), avg 1.0ms >> tenures 0

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Can fragments get me a read-only image?
by Lalo Martins 30 Jun '01

30 Jun '01

I'm tryint to cram squeak in my agenda (http://www.agendacomputing.com)... but I can't make an useful image < 5Mb. The point is, we have a lot of space in the "romdisk" (cramfs); I could probably live with a much larger image in there, but it would have to be read-only. Can fragments somehow help me to have a read-only image, and have my stuff written somewhere else (rw)? []s, |alo +---- -- http://www.laranja.org/ mailto:lalo@laranja.org pgp key: http://www.laranja.org/pessoal/pgp Brazil of Darkness (RPG) --- http://www.BroDar.org/

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