Squeak-dev March 2003

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202 participants
818 discussions

Re: SUnit Test Failure on fresh Image - Win32
by Hannes Hirzel 01 Mar '03

01 Mar '03

Marcus Denker <marcus(a)ira.uka.de> wrote: > On Sat, Mar 01, 2003 at 10:08:24AM +0100, Hannes Hirzel wrote: > > > > And the SUnit version included there is still 3.0 although there is an > > updated version (3.1) on SqueakMaop (updated by Diego Gomez Deck and > > Francisco Garau; original port by Joseph Pelrine, Stephane Ducasse and > > Ned Konz and I think). That version conforms better with the SUnit > > implementations for other Smalltalk dialects. > > > > I think this is not yet on SqueakMap (I can't find it). > > Marcus > You are right Marcus. It is here http://swiki.gsug.org:8080/sqfixes/3015.html. I remember now that Diego was asking us to test it. I have actually been using it for 12 days now and it works fine. Any other test experiences? Diego says that he will create a SqueakMap entry after it has been tested. -- Hannes

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Re: SUnit Test Failure on fresh Image - Win32
by Hannes Hirzel 01 Mar '03

01 Mar '03

Avi Bryant <avi(a)beta4.com> wrote: > This failure should of course be fixed, but having a failing test in the > image shouldn't prevent you from using SUnit yourself. If you execute > "TestRunner open" you'll get the SUnit UI; you can select your test case > class and click "Run One", which will run just your tests, and ignore all > the rest. This is usually what you want to do, since "Run All" can take > an awfully long time... Well, it takes about 10 seconds in a fresh Sq 3.4 gammaOne image to run the 171 tests which come presupplied with the image .... -- Hannes

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RE: Possible goals for future releases (was: Re: Let's Release 3. 4)
by Swan, Dean 01 Mar '03

01 Mar '03

> -----Original Message----- > From: Cees de Groot [mailto:cg@cdegroot.com] > Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 6:31 PM > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > Subject: Re: Possible goals for future releases (was: Re: > Let's Release > 3.4) >You set goals or you set dates. As long as this is a volunteer effort >where people wildly fluctuate in the amount of time they can contribute, >you cannot set both. > >I'm in favor of setting dates. I think you need to propose targets for BOTH goals and dates, with an understanding that either the goals or the dates are the higher priority. Some goals may be high enough in importance that you are willing to move the date, and some goals may not be that important. Setting dates provides a motivation for people to choose to spend some of their time on things that they want included. If you only set dates and no goals, Squeak is less likely to get assigned a priority in people's daily lives, and the date may arrive with nothing new to release. I think these ideas are fairly basic principles of project management, but feel free to disabuse me of my pre-conceptions. -Dean Swan

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Re: Multi-Lingual Squeak, Cathedrals, Bazaars and Fallen Cities.
by Daniel Vainsencher 01 Mar '03

01 Mar '03

Hi Eddie. I understand your concerns, and in the final analysis, probably agree multilanguage support is something that should be in the core. However, we're not at a point where there's anything to do about MLSQ in the core. The reason for that is that currently, Yoshiki's work is experimental. Since no one understands it (AFAIK) but him and Abe-san, nobody else can maintain it. Until someone goes in and breaks it up into pieces we can integrate, it'll remain a separate project. Since Yoshiki has stated he will not have time to do this in the next few months, I called for anyone interested in helping make this happen to step forward. AFAIK, so far, no good. This means that the integration of Yoshiki's work, right now, will have to wait until he has the time to do it, or someone else shows up with a serious itch. Daniel Edmund Ronald <eronald(a)cmapx.polytechnique.fr> wrote: > I plead for Multilingual Squeak (call it MLSQ) to become the responsiblity > of the core Squeak maintainers. Here's why: > > 1. MLSQ is important for all of us in non US locales. We would wish all > Squeak to be locale-agnostic: Any program should run in any locale. > > 2. For MLSQ to be transparent, it should therefore not require the > programmer to understand any Unicode or other charset or encoding > esoterica. MLSQ character processing should ideally isolate the programmer > completely from the specificities of any multi-byte encoding. > > 3. Clearly, MLSQ needs to be designed carefully by specialists familiar > with multi-byte issues. Reliability from the start is important. Therefore > a cathedral-like initial design approach, with good documentation by the > likes of Oshima-san and Abe-san makes sense, rather than letting > mods accrete as it seems has happened with morphic. > > 4. However, a Multilingual separate distribution (like Nihongo Squeak), or > a loadable add-on, DO NOT MAKE SENSE. Such a separate package will > inevitably get out of sync with the current beta, get out of sync with > newer add-ons, unnoticed bugs will lie dormant, and people will be too > busy to rewrite their US-centric software to ensure compatibility with > MLSQ, retroactively, when foreign users demand it. > > 5. If MLSQ is part of the core of every new distribution, any > incompatibilities of MLSQ with standard tools will become immediately > apparent. Furthermore, foreign users will immediately notice any issues > with any new version in their own locales, at the alpha beta and gamma > stages of each distribution and help nip them in the bud. As all software > runs in any locale from the start, writers of add-ons will have bugs in > multi-nationalization communicated to them by foreign beta-testers, > allowing hackers to fumigate their add-on *before* it reaches maturity. > > Which is why, again, I plead for internationalisation to be considered a > core feature, to be intended from the start to be handed over to the core > maintainers. > > Edmund

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Re: How many Squeak Lists?
by Ken Collins 01 Mar '03

01 Mar '03

Thanks Ned :) >From: Ned Konz <ned(a)bike-nomad.com> >Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >list<squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> >To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >list<squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> >Subject: Re: How many Squeak Lists? >Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:27:01 -0800 > >On Friday 28 February 2003 05:44 pm, Ken Collins wrote: > > Hi, > > > > >snip> > > > > > >Regarding 3.5 content, I agree that that needs to be discussed... > > > I imagine discussions will start up on that topic soon on the SqF > > > list. (Ah, I see you just started a thread here on > > > squeak-dev...) > > >- Doug Way > > > > I have been seeing replys to unseen original messages and am > > wondering how many Squeak Lists there are ("official"?). Where does > > one > > subscribe/unsubscribe to any others than > > "squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org"? > >There is one other list, > >squeakfoundation(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > >that is used to discuss process/guide/planning related things. > >You're welcome to join it. > >Recently there have been some messages copied to both lists; >squeakfoundation is a lower-volume list than squeak-dev and some >people are probably subscribed to it alone. > >-- >Ned Konz >http://bike-nomad.com >GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Beta test Bitstream Vera fonts available.
by Jim.Gettys＠hp.com 01 Mar '03

01 Mar '03

Not yet under the final license, but you can download from: See: http://www.gnome.org/fonts for all the gory details. Enjoy. - Jim -- Jim Gettys Cambridge Research Laboratory HP Labs, Hewlett-Packard Company Jim.Gettys(a)hp.com

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re: release prioritization
by Daniel Vainsencher 01 Mar '03

01 Mar '03

Hi Hannes. Let's see if we can summarize and answer your points - [Tests] Tests are needed, us Guides know this, you're preaching to the choir. The community should continue to supply tests, and some will be used to approve releases. We won't use tests we don't have. If someone compiles, as has been suggested, a test package on SM, it might help. [Status - everyone should know where each release stands. Could be solved with a bug/issue DB] You're right. We need such a tool, but - we need more urgently a fix tracking tool, to make sure we don't lose work that people submit - fixes are higher priority than bugs, because people become more upset when you lose their changesets than when you ignore their bugs. We're planning to make such a tool, but we haven't made much progress in that, either. We could really use some help from the community with either of them. About reporting status - Actually, in the Linux community, there's a guy that simply follows the discussions, Linus and gets updates from other developers, and maintains a list of patches/issues, and where in the pipeline they are (planning coding testing in - sort of like the list I made for refactorings). He updates this list and posts it publically every so often. This could be done once a month. As you say, it would help everyone immensely, by keeping us all on the same page and showing us exactly what's stuck. If anyone from the documentation project or at all is volunteering to provude such a status report on a regular basis, that'd bee a meaningful contribution to the community. [You want a near perfect release for 3.4] Your objections have been noted, the bugs have been rated as non-critical, and a release will be issued at Doug's convinience. Fixes for the bugs that have been proposed will be reviewed and passed into 3.5a quite soon after the release of 3.4. [You fear that 3.4 will last a long time because there's no explicit plan for 3.5] One will be made, after 3.4 is laid to rest, with the participation of the community, as you've been told by both Craig and I before. Your fears are probably unfounded - we have spoken about 3.5 as a probably second short release to get the process optimized. You're welcome to find this on the squeakfoundation archives, where all discussions on this topic reside. [focus] We don't at all focus solely on schedule issues, to say this is to ignore the distinguishable amounts of verbiage us Guides have been generating, some of us more than others, on completely other topics <embarrassed grin>. But actually, our sole page of real hard policy, which is linked off the release plan page, is "the lifecycle of a release" page, which you should read, because it's concerned with quality, and it is that that we're attempting to follow. Daniel Hannes Hirzel <hannes.hirzel.squeaklist(a)bluewin.ch> wrote: > Now a question everybody who is looking at your work would come up with: > > Are these goals met and if yes by which criteria is this evaluated. > You have put five points on this list. What do you have to say about > them > at the end of February? > Postponing an issue is fully a viable option if there are important new > reasons coming up. > This has to be discussed and communicated. > > And: A list of open issues and major known bugs is surely a useful tool > for guiding a development process. > > I do not see any links on the above mentioned pages. > > In the SqC area for various reasons Dan Ingalls used to be the > "development process" > (chief programmer approach). Because of his long experience he just took > care of a lot of things. > In the post SqC area the process should be made more explicit. We have > all these nice tools and communication aids (mailing lists, Swikis / > even world wide phone calls are accessible for many) - why not use them? > > I'm hoping that this stimulates you to not soley focus on schedule > issues. I really recommend you to (re)read the excellent write-up by > Daniel Vainsencher about the nature of releases > http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/squeak/1555651 (Email from > today). > > Regards and happy Squeaking! > > Hannes > > > > P.S. My emphasis for having a proper (not perfect!) 3.4 release is > motivated by my fears it might be the base for further development for a > rather long time. This is fed by the fact that on the release plan > (http://swiki.squeakfoundation.org/squeakfoundation/79) there is no > single sentence about 3.5 not to speak of 3.6 and 3.7.

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re: release prioritization
by Hannes Hirzel 01 Mar '03

01 Mar '03

Hi Craig Craig Latta <craig.latta(a)netjam.org> wrote: > > Hi Hannes-- > > > Not having a proper test culture in Squeak leads us to have this kind > > of funny discussions. > > Perhaps you could elaborate as to what you consider a proper test > culture. An example of an emerging test culture >"Brent Vukmer" <bvukmer(a)blackboard.com> wrote: > I installed the MetaClassBuilderFix SAR in a 3.4gamma image, > installed the ClassBuilder test suite, > and then ran the ClassBuilder test suite > -- 3 out of 3 tests passed. > Cheers Hannes

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