Squeak-dev October 2008

squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org

111 participants
144 discussions

Re: Windows service: Win2k to the rescue - slightly
by Bill Schwab 16 Oct '08

16 Oct '08

Andreas, Thanks for the clarification. I run a fair amount of server code, but (so far) very little of it is pure. Various forces are leading me to want to correct that. In one case (the serial communications), the boxes are largely appliances. I have been running desktop apps on them out of expediency. That is also true on my servers. In both cases, a desktop app served a purpose, because I did not have to create a separate GUI to manage the services. For both classes of machine, I have opportunity (and in one case a growing need) to turn some of the operational work over to others. The more Linux I can do the better, but completely moving away from Windows will take some real effort; more below. But Seaside enters as a nice way to replace and extend the web functionality I offer, but it also should be able to replace the management GUIs on the servers and appliances. There are enough of the latter machines that I want to make it brain-dead simple to configure Apache; each of those machines will be a web server, and pretty simple to use - plug it in and turn it on. The machines are almost that simple now in truth, and most of the trouble stems from stupid features of an OS that will remain nameless ;) My primary cash cow feeds data into all of the above, and it is a combination of a hands-off data gathering system and fairly intense user interface. Here, Linux would help me some (ok, a lot) with maintenance, but it forces me to replace some nice printing, serialization, and low-level user interface features. While I think dumping Windows is the correct decision, these machines will be the last to switch, in part because device drivers are being a pain (pen tablets), and I really should just rewrite the code to make the move. If that sticks, then I can later convert the legacy data, and put Tux's likeness on any adhesive-friendly surface I can find. While I work on other parts of the system, I will be watching for signs that I need to rethink the use of Squeak/Pharo over other Smalltalks. Don't get me wrong, I hope it can stand up to the beating, and plan to use it if it indeed can. Bill ============================ Andreas Raab andreas.raab at gmx.de Bill Schwab wrote: > Ok, Zen session management. One thing I like about Dolphin's approach > is there is a clear startup, so things like initializing the network > have a home and do not need to appear anywhere else. Here, it appears > that Seaside was running when the image was saved, so it's running when > it reloads. The startup lists seem to cause a mix of initialization or > sometimes simply tear things down to force subsequent lazy > initialization. Is that a reasonable summary? Depends on the app. You might want to ask this question on the Seaside list. > As for preferred OS, this comes to you courtesy of Ubuntu. The biggest > concern I have is that the switch involves some platform independent > graphics that will be non-trivial to replace. Ah, I see. I thought that you were running pure server code since you were interested in Apache+Seaside+Services. If your project isn't easily portable it is probably not the right approach. > Asking this of the creator and maintainer of the Windows VM is perhaps a > little cruel, but please understand it is not meant that way. Do you > have a sense of whether Windows is to be avoided because it is largely > junk, or because the Windows port of Squeak has inherent flaws? I like Windows. I like Squeak. I use them every day. But it doesn't lead me to confuse it with a reliable server OS anymore than I would think of running a production service on the iPhone or the Xbox. They are all great for what they do but it's not running services. > IIRC, you reached a point of frustration with Squeak, and were thinking > of rewriting some servers in Java. That triggered some semaphore and > delay fixes that seemed to be quite helpful to many users. Did that fix > the troubles for you? Did you further find it necessary to dump Windows > to get relief (that's probably a little redundant given your comments)? > Were you able to avoid the server rewrites? This is not an entirely accurate recollection of the events but the delay and semaphore fixes greatly helped reliability of our services (which have always been run on Linux boxes). Cheers, - Andreas Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029

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Summary of FreeCAD/Croquet for GSOC 2008
by Phua Khai Fong 15 Oct '08

15 Oct '08

Dear all, I'm sending out this mail to inform all of you on the state of my project, FreeCAD/Croquet for Google Summer of Code 2008 hosted under The Squeak Project mentored by Dr. A.S. Koh. Everything has gone really well for me during the program. First off, I would like to introduce you to the website for FreeCAD/Croquet which is:- http://www.oopgames.com/freecad/ The latest progress which is simulation of multibody dynamics can be found at :- http://www.oopgames.com/freecad/multibody-dynamic-simulation Secondly, in fulfilling the requirements of the Squeak mentors, here are the 3 essays which is posted on the Summer of Squeak blog and also:- http://www.oopgames.com/freecad/freecadcroquet http://www.oopgames.com/freecad/smalltalk-freecadcroquet http://www.oopgames.com/freecad/future-freecadcroquet Thirdly, I hope that you guys can find the time to help me in improving my project by testing it out. All comments about the website and FreeCAD/Croquet itself will be much appreciated. I know that things are a bit messy right now and incomplete and that is why I really need the help of the community to improve on it. Finally, my mentor and I would like to thank all the Squeak and Google administrators, mentors, fellow participants, fellow Croqueteers and the community for helping and supporting me in getting into the program and through it. Without you guys, I would not have been able to achieve anything much. I will continue to work on this project even though GSOC is over. My current work now is to import Google SketchUp models into Cobalt and I hope to present you all with more exciting news in the near future. Regards, Fong Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com. http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/

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Squeaksource weirdness
by Andreas Raab 15 Oct '08

15 Oct '08

Hi - Not sure where to send this to but there is an interesting buglet in Squeaksource (at least from the user POV). Try this: * Go to squeaksource.com * Click on projects, search for "ldap" (this lists 2 projects) * Click on "Monticello cURL" * Click on Versions Notice how the list of versions is empty and how the search term is still being set to "ldap". This can be quite confusing since that search term really shouldn't transfer from the project search to the search within a project. It gets even more confusing if the project has some versions that actually do match the search terms ;-) Cheers, - Andreas

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Re: Windows service: Win2k to the rescue - slightly
by Bill Schwab 15 Oct '08

15 Oct '08

Andreas, Ok, Zen session management. One thing I like about Dolphin's approach is there is a clear startup, so things like initializing the network have a home and do not need to appear anywhere else. Here, it appears that Seaside was running when the image was saved, so it's running when it reloads. The startup lists seem to cause a mix of initialization or sometimes simply tear things down to force subsequent lazy initialization. Is that a reasonable summary? As for preferred OS, this comes to you courtesy of Ubuntu. The biggest concern I have is that the switch involves some platform independent graphics that will be non-trivial to replace. I am sufficiently tired of Windows hassles (not to mention wondering what they will break next...) that I would be willing to sacrifice some features, hopefully temporarily, to leave Windows behind. With luck, I will be able to get Linux/Pharo images to pass around some "Windows specific data" that is generated and interpreted by what will be the last machines to convert. It requires some fairly hard work up front, and eventually a nearly complete rewrite of something that could probably stand to have its entrails straightened and cleaned anyway. Before that, I will move something that does LOTS of serial communications; I'm actually looking forward to that, as I would get some noticeable benefits from the switch. Before I get to the ugly part, I hope to have amassed lots of positive experience suggesting that Squeak/Pharo is sufficiently stable and fast enough to do the job. Asking this of the creator and maintainer of the Windows VM is perhaps a little cruel, but please understand it is not meant that way. Do you have a sense of whether Windows is to be avoided because it is largely junk, or because the Windows port of Squeak has inherent flaws? IIRC, you reached a point of frustration with Squeak, and were thinking of rewriting some servers in Java. That triggered some semaphore and delay fixes that seemed to be quite helpful to many users. Did that fix the troubles for you? Did you further find it necessary to dump Windows to get relief (that's probably a little redundant given your comments)? Were you able to avoid the server rewrites? Thanks! Bill =========================== Andreas Raab andreas.raab at gmx.de Wed Oct 15 07:16:28 UTC 2008 Bill Schwab wrote: > Instead of the started/stopped business, it said that it could not start > the service. I had been wondering about that, but the messages from XP > and 2k3 were more suggestive that Squeak/Pharo was deciding to quit due > to inability to access files, the network, etc. At least that is what a > Dolphin server would do: discover it has no running socket/COM/etc. > services and the bail out, unless overridden in the current session > manager. I'm still trying to get inside Squeak/Pharo's head in that > regard. It's really simple. There is *nothing* towards that end. The only thing that does anything is code that you write. No session manager, no console, no nothing. Don't assume there is anything because there ain't. > Anything you have learned about tracing services on the various flavors > of Windows could be helpful. I am tempted to finish off the Apache > configuration and test the Seaside app, but hopefully I will have enough > sense to have a well-deserved beer and watch a movie or something. The only thing I've learned is this: If you're running a service that you want to be available you don't run it on Windows. Ever. Go buy a box at Hetzner.de[*] for EUR49 a month, put Ubuntu 8.04 LTS on it and you're set for the next five years. This can be done in less than a day and you have a production-ready environment. For development, run the same setup in a VMware image on your preferred choice of machine (windows is fine for that). Note that since VMplayer is free all you need to find is a suitable VMware image, which is right here: http://www.vmware.com/appliances/directory/1223. [*] Anyone knowing of a service of similar quality in the US or Canada? Cheers, - Andreas Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029

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Windows service: Win2k to the rescue - slightly
by Bill Schwab 15 Oct '08

15 Oct '08

Simon, Andreas, My very isolated and greatly appreciated win2k machine indeed helped me figure out what was going on, though not quite as much as I expected. I'm not sure if that's good or bad. Instead of the started/stopped business, it said that it could not start the service. I had been wondering about that, but the messages from XP and 2k3 were more suggestive that Squeak/Pharo was deciding to quit due to inability to access files, the network, etc. At least that is what a Dolphin server would do: discover it has no running socket/COM/etc. services and the bail out, unless overridden in the current session manager. I'm still trying to get inside Squeak/Pharo's head in that regard. The mistake was mine. I had mangled the arguments to svrany. What bothers me is the complete lack of diagnostic data pointing to that mistake. svrany gave me nothing of value. Even on win2k, I appear not to be getting strings from OutputDebugString(), which surprises me from complaints about XP, 2k3 and Vista not living up to 2k's cooperative nature. However, it as been a long day, and I will take another look before concluding that is broken on 2k. Anything you have learned about tracing services on the various flavors of Windows could be helpful. I am tempted to finish off the Apache configuration and test the Seaside app, but hopefully I will have enough sense to have a well-deserved beer and watch a movie or something. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029

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the NewCompiler and complex numbers
by Michael Haupt 15 Oct '08

15 Oct '08

Hi, this is puzzling: in a 3.9 image, using the "old" compiler, evaluating "6 + 6 i" and "6 - 6 i" works fine. Enabling the new compiler, "6 + 6 i" still works, but "6 - 6 i" does not because the compiler converts it to something nonsensical: pushConstant: 6 pushLit: i send: - ... What the heck? So why would the compiler, all of a sudden, think that i is not a message selector when it appears after some -? If this has already been reported, I apologise for creating noise. In any case, I'd be happy if someone could give me a hint on how to fix this. BTW it's NewCompiler 174 from SqueakMap. Best, Michael

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Windows VM suggestion
by Bill Schwab 15 Oct '08

15 Oct '08

Andreas, OutputDebugString() is working wonderfully, except perhaps when running as a service. It is also possible that the VM is never really getting an opportunity to run. Hopefully I have the pieces I need to try running it on a 2k box; the theory being that Windows gets goofier with time, so maybe the 2k box will help me see something of diagnostic value. Searches turned up several instances of someone having problems that appeared to be new after win2k, so it's worth a shot. In looking through the VM source for a clue (none yet<g>), I noted the following: void SetupWindows() { WNDCLASS wc; /* create our update region */ updateRgn = CreateRectRgn(0,0,1,1); /* No windows at all when running as NT service */ if(fRunService && !fWindows95) return; .... Would it be better to create the region _after_ the test and early return? The efficiency gain would be too small to mention, but CreateRectRgn() might be seen as part of the GUI, which might be a problem for services?? Dolphin uses a hierarchy of SessionManager classes, split by console and GUI, etc., that control startup, shutdown, and event processing. Is there a similar concept in Squeak? Aside from understanding how the system works, I am trying to figure out where I would best add an attempt at logging so that it should run. If I knew how to ask the question, I could probably answer it, but any suggestions that come to mind would be appreciated. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029

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Reformat method on accept
by Udo Schneider 15 Oct '08

15 Oct '08

Hi, I think I'm simply to confused to find it .... but how do I tell Squeak to do a pretty print automatically when I save a method? I think I remember such a setting but can't find it anymore. Any pointers? CU, Udo

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11th Hour: CFP Smalltalk Superpowers (Their Uses for Good or Evil)
by Travis Griggs 14 Oct '08

14 Oct '08

If you're like me, things get put off till the last minute. If you're going to OOPSLA, please consider participating in the Smalltalk Superpowers (Their Uses for Good or Evil) workshop. Workshops need participants to make them happen. You don't have to be a super coder at all to participate in this. You may just be really impressed (or disgusted) with a snazzy Smalltalk trick that you don't find in other less dynamic systems. Please visit: http://smalltalk-superpowers.org/ It's still not too late. We look forward to hearing from you and to seeing you at OOPSLA. -- Travis Griggs Objologist One man's blue plane is another man's pink plane.

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Re: [squeak-dev] [Squeak-dev Images]
by Ken Causey 14 Oct '08

14 Oct '08

Just FYI, the URL I provided below is what I believe Damien meant when he asked you 'Does it work in a base 3.10.2 image?' Ken On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 22:22 -0300, Gonzalo Romano wrote: > hi, havent tried the stock image, i have direct access to internet > > 2008/10/12 Ken Causey <ken(a)kencausey.com> > David: > > Have you also tried a stock release image: > > http://ftp.squeak.org/3.10/Squeak3.10.2-7179-basic.zip > > ? > > Gonzalo: > > And this was the image you tried that had the same behavior > you > described with the Squeak-dev image? > > Do you have direct access to the Internet/Web? Or do you need > to make > use of a proxy? > > Ken > > > On Sat, 2008-10-11 at 18:49 -0500, David Zmick wrote: > > i was having that problem as well > > > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 6:26 AM, Gonzalo > <gonzalo.romano(a)gmail.com> > > wrote: > > On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:45:12 -0300, Damien Cassou > > <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Gonzalo > > <gonzalo.romano(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I can't get the squeak map to work, > in the > > latest dev image, apparently it > > is not creating the instance of > SqueakMap > > correctly every variable appears > > to be nil when debugger window comes > up... > > > > Does it work in a base 3.10.2 image? > > > > > > nop, just tried it... > > > > -- > > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: > > http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > > -- > > David Zmick > > /dz0004455\ > > http://dz0004455.googlepages.com > > http://dz0004455.blogspot.com > > > -- > Gonzalo, Romano >

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