Lex
lex@cc.gatech.edu wrote:
There are more than two proposals. I don't think they are documented anywhere outside the mailing list. The thread starts at:
So my question is if somebody wouldn't mind to summarize the proposals in a neatly readable fashion.
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2004-December/085261....
The current Squeak settings map as follows (at least, I think this is what they do):
duplicateControlAndAltKeys = dupMain swapControlAndAltKeys = swapMain
What is dupMain and swapMain? There are methods named #duplicateControlAndAltKeys and #swapControlAndAltKeys in the image but dupMain and swapMain?
In particular, what do you think of making duplicateControlAndAltKeys be turned on by default, on all platforms?
I would like that the first impression new users get of squeak is that the cut/copy/paste/select_all keyboard shortcuts _work_ as expected.
This means on a Mac
clover key (http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/f/featurekey.html)
<clover key> x --> cut <clover key> c --> copy <clover key> v --> paste <clover key> a --> select all
and on Windows
<ctrl> x --> cut <ctrl> c --> copy <ctrl> v --> paste <ctrl> a --> select all
and on Linux the shortcuts which are common there which you know better than I.
If the keyboard shortcuts are not like this people think Squeak is very experimental software as the developers didn't even care of providing shortcuts for most often used commands. Or they just call it a bug what it probably is.
Regarding your proposal of giving up the distinction between the <alt> and the <ctrl> key altogether: I do not consider this to be a good idea as it gives away future options without a need.
On windows it is very commons to have a lot of different shortcuts
(ctrl plus aKey) does not give the same thing as (alt plus aKey)
I certainly need for my work in the future to have still more options for additional key combinations (for example as we now have Unicode to insert special symbols).
To summarize: I prefer that a preference
(swapControlAndAltKeys true)
is set in SmalltalkImage>>setPlatformPreferences (in the Windows section)
if this does not find a majority I still prefer (duplicateControlAndAltKeys true)
in SmalltalkImage>>setPlatformPreferences (in the Windows section) to the current solution.
Thank you for giving me your attention
Hannes
NB: Whoever feels that this discussion has reached a conclusion should create an update of the method SmalltalkImage>>setPlatformPreferences produce a changeset and post it on http://bugs.impara.de/
But having only the opinion of 4 people is probably not enough as UI issues are relatively sensitive (12..14 would be good IMO). This is the reason why I ask for a neat summary where the proposals are listed so that people can vote for or against.
I would like that the first impression new users get of squeak is that the cut/copy/paste/select_all keyboard shortcuts _work_ as expected.
This means on a Mac
clover key (http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/f/featurekey.html)
<clover key> x --> cut <clover key> c --> copy <clover key> v --> paste <clover key> a --> select all
and on Windows
<ctrl> x --> cut <ctrl> c --> copy <ctrl> v --> paste <ctrl> a --> select all
To requote Hannes
I would like that the first impression new users get of squeak is that the cut/copy/paste/select_all keyboard shortcuts _work_ as expected.
This means :-
<ctrl><insert> --> copy <shift><insert> --> paste
This is what 95% of Windows users know and use.
I propose not necessarily now but sometime in the future that on the Windows platform and only on the Windows platform that a preference option is made avaiable that allows the standard Windows CnP keystrokes in duplicate to the standard Squeak CnP keystrokes, whether or not that preference flag is activated or not as default is another matter, but I think this option should be there and probably as I say only on the Windows platform.
This is most probably what most Windows users expect, and kicking the <ctrl>/<shift><insert> habit is hard and results in the "<shift><insert> unknown character insertion bug" as I call it. Hint Hint, Can I or someone file this as a bug report please !:)
Okay thats my 0.02cents worth,
Aaron
I would add to these lists:
<whatever meta key> z --> undo
Aaron Gray angray-at-beeb.net |squeak devlists| wrote:
I would like that the first impression new users get of squeak is that the cut/copy/paste/select_all keyboard shortcuts _work_ as expected.
This means on a Mac
clover key (http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/f/featurekey.html)
<clover key> x --> cut <clover key> c --> copy <clover key> v --> paste <clover key> a --> select all
and on Windows
<ctrl> x --> cut <ctrl> c --> copy <ctrl> v --> paste <ctrl> a --> select all
To requote Hannes
I would like that the first impression new users get of squeak is that the cut/copy/paste/select_all keyboard shortcuts _work_ as expected.
This means :-
<ctrl><insert> --> copy <shift><insert> --> paste
This is what 95% of Windows users know and use.
I propose not necessarily now but sometime in the future that on the Windows platform and only on the Windows platform that a preference option is made avaiable that allows the standard Windows CnP keystrokes in duplicate to the standard Squeak CnP keystrokes, whether or not that preference flag is activated or not as default is another matter, but I think this option should be there and probably as I say only on the Windows platform.
This is most probably what most Windows users expect, and kicking the <ctrl>/<shift><insert> habit is hard and results in the "<shift><insert> unknown character insertion bug" as I call it. Hint Hint, Can I or someone file this as a bug report please !:)
Okay thats my 0.02cents worth,
Aaron
p.s. Oh I meant to say. The Windows <ctrl><insert>/<shift><insert> and preferences could be implemented with the KeyMapper when it gets properly integrated in a future release.
Hannes, if you don't mind, can you read and reply in the duplicating/swapping thread? This is a big list, so following the threading is important.
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2004-December/085261....
Your concern about losing possible keystrokes has already been addressed and discussed. First, the keystrokes are *not* lost; they are merely moved from ctrl-key to ctrl-shift-key. Second, you have overlooked the cost of documentation for new users. Instead of saying "press ctrl-v to paste", the swapping proposals mean you have to say something like "press ctrl-v if you are on windows, or alt-v on unix, or cmd-v on a mac".
(I favor dupAll over dupMain for the same reason: there's less to explain.)
But having only the opinion of 4 people is probably not enough as UI issues are relatively sensitive (12..14 would be good IMO).
The thing is, every proposal is better than what we have. Additionally, this issue has now been discussed *twice* on the public developer's mailing list. I think everyone who cares has had plenty of time to chime in at this point.
-Lex
lex@cc.gatech.edu wrote:
Hannes, if you don't mind, can you read and reply in the duplicating/swapping thread? This is a big list, so following the threading is important.
This is my last statement regarding this topic for some time ... :-)
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2004-December/085261....
Your concern about losing possible keystrokes has already been addressed and discussed.
Thank you.
First, the keystrokes are *not* lost; they are merely
moved from ctrl-key to ctrl-shift-key. Second, you have overlooked the cost of documentation for new users. Instead of saying "press ctrl-v to paste", the swapping proposals mean you have to say something like "press ctrl-v if you are on windows, or alt-v on unix, or cmd-v on a mac".
I do not think I have to document this in the Squeak documentation as the platform specific general shortcut keys most people know anyhow. They expect them. And for the absolute beginners for computing I think they should go for the platform specific keys. Otherwise they have to unlearn later.
But having only the opinion of 4 people is probably not enough as UI issues are relatively sensitive (12..14 would be good IMO).
I still hold this opinion. But if others do not like to participate then the for should go one.
The thing is, every proposal is better than what we have. Additionally, this issue has now been discussed *twice* on the public developer's mailing list. I think everyone who cares has had plenty of time to chime in at this point.
This is just the point I have been trying to make the last few days. Thank you for your agreement. So basically whatever you decide if is a change it is fine for me.
Hannes
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:55:35 +0000, "Hannes Hirzel" hirzel@spw.unizh.ch said:
lex@cc.gatech.edu wrote:
Hannes, if you don't mind, can you read and reply in the duplicating/swapping thread? This is a big list, so following the threading is important.
This is my last statement regarding this topic for some time ... :-)
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2004-December/085261....
...
The thing is, every proposal is better than what we have. Additionally, this issue has now been discussed *twice* on the public developer's mailing list. I think everyone who cares has had plenty of time to chime in at this point.
This is just the point I have been trying to make the last few days. Thank you for your agreement. So basically whatever you decide if is a change it is fine for me.
FYI, I summarized these copy/paste modifier key threads a few moments ago, under the thread "modifier duplicating/swapping".
- Doug
Hi Hannes,
Hannes Hirzel wrote:
Lex
<...>
On windows it is very commons to have a lot of different shortcuts
(ctrl plus aKey) does not give the same thing as (alt plus aKey)
I certainly need for my work in the future to have still more options for additional key combinations (for example as we now have Unicode to insert special symbols).
<...>
Right, but for a tutorial - and therefore for beginners - its easiest to say press <cmd>-whatever, where <cmd> is any of ctr/alt/cmd, depending on your platform. And as Squeak is used on very different platforms, it makes sens to always have the same keys working, e.g. if you dual boot. And then, it will be a preference, so you can do whatever you like in your own image.
But having only the opinion of 4 people is probably not enough as UI issues are relatively sensitive (12..14 would be good IMO). This is the reason why I ask for a neat summary where the proposals are listed so that people can vote for or against.
Except that noone who hasn't raised his voice so far _would_ actually vote. Sad but true. (And I'm including myself here).
Well, I'd say go with dupall (having shortcuts which are displayed as uppercase being usable with the uppercase key, makes lots of sense, IMO).
Kind regards,
Ingo
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