Just a little survey. It won't solve anything (the best arguments are those carried on regardless of the facts!) but may tell us something about Squeakind.
For me it's a way of trying to resolve Mark's statement that most of his students use Linux and Maarten's assertion that 90% of Squeakers use Windows with my own gut feeling that Mac users are very well represented on this list and that while Windows users outnumber Linux users, it's not by much.
Of course Squeak is an OS......
Anyway, anyone who wants to take part in this non-definitive survey, please reply to this *_off list_* (to me, that is) just putting the letter to correspond to the OS they predominently use to run Squeak in the body of the message. And I'll try to collate the results by this time next week.
a. Mac b. OSX c. BSD d. Linux c. Other *nix d. Acorn (hi Tim!) e. Windows f. OS2 g. PS2
If you feel that your OS/platform of choice has been cruely neglected, just tell me what you're using.
Cheers
John
c
While I have equal access to a number of operating systems at home, I use either my G4 or PowerBook G3 for Squeak. For testing purposes, though, I can run on:
1) MacOS9.1 2) MacOS9.2 3) MacOS9.2.1 4) MacOSX.1 5) Win98SE 6) WinCE3.0 7) Mandrake Linux 8.1 8) RedHat Linux 7.2 9) RedHat Linux 6.2 10) Apple ][ DOS 3.3 :)
-- Duane
For me it's a way of trying to resolve Mark's statement that most of his students use Linux and Maarten's assertion that 90% of Squeakers use Windows with my own gut feeling that Mac users are very well represented on this list and that while Windows users outnumber Linux users, it's not by much.
None of the above are really contradictory. - By my "students," I meant my graduate students, e.g., Je77 is mostly a UNIX person, Lex is entirely a Linux user, Joshua is mostly a Linux user. Bolot is our sole Windows maven. The Macs I keep putting in the lab collect dust in the corners... - My undergraduate students (http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu/cs2340) are mostly Windows users (like most of the universe), but with a very vocal *nix minority. - People on this list are a majority, but are probably not the complete Squeak-using universe. My guess is that Squeakers NOT on this list are probably heavily Windows users, as the majority of computer users are. Those on the list probably tend toward non-traditional approaches, so there are more Mac and *nix people here than in the general computing public.
Mark
-------------------------- Mark Guzdial : Georgia Tech : College of Computing : Atlanta, GA 30332-0280 Associate Professor - Learning Sciences & Technologies. Collaborative Software Lab - http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu/csl/ (404) 894-5618 : Fax (404) 894-0673 : guzdial@cc.gatech.edu http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/people/Faculty/Mark.Guzdial.html
Mark Guzdial wrote:
For me it's a way of trying to resolve Mark's statement that most of his students use Linux and Maarten's assertion that 90% of Squeakers use Windows with my own gut feeling that Mac users are very well represented on this list and that while Windows users outnumber Linux users, it's not by much.
None of the above are really contradictory.
For sure, but it's still not so easy to get your head around!
- By my "students," I meant my graduate students, e.g., Je77 is
mostly a UNIX person, Lex is entirely a Linux user, Joshua is mostly a Linux user. Bolot is our sole Windows maven. The Macs I keep putting in the lab collect dust in the corners...
Well, you could always crate one up and send it to me! I'd really like to play with a Mac and see what all the fuss is about but I don't know anyone who has one and, well, I can buy Sparc kit for less.
- My undergraduate students (http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu/cs2340) are
mostly Windows users (like most of the universe), but with a very vocal *nix minority.
Feel free to ask them to contribute to the survey. It'll be interesting to find out if the advent of Windows XP turns more of your undergrads towards or away from Windows.
- People on this list are a majority, but are probably not the
complete Squeak-using universe. My guess is that Squeakers NOT on this list are probably heavily Windows users, as the majority of computer users are.
That would be my initial guess too, but then I wonder if the path to finding (and recognising) Squeak actually demands something similar to the path to different OSs? After all, why should non-list Squeakers be different to list Squeakers (except in so far as most list Squeakers have found it to be something they like)?
BTW, I'll start summarising the results (it's been a _very_ impressive turn out) on Thursday after Buffy (around 1900 GMT), so there's still plenty of time to submit.
Cheers
John
Does it really matter ? I know MS has the most unfavourable reputation, but they are all of a muchness (as personal computers) in comparison to how they could have been .
When I look at what was being done in 1980 with Smalltalk I must say I'm miffed to realise how slow the software industry has been through just taking up the window and desktop metaphor. Not enough have "clicked" on the mind metaphor.
Who wants to be constrained by windows whether it's called Windows or not ? Not I !
Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hinsley" jhinsley@telinco.co.uk To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 10:41 PM Subject: Re: A survey of OSs used by Squeakers
Mark Guzdial wrote:
For me it's a way of trying to resolve Mark's statement that most of
his
students use Linux and Maarten's assertion that 90% of Squeakers use Windows with my own gut feeling that Mac users are very well
represented
on this list and that while Windows users outnumber Linux users, it's not by much.
None of the above are really contradictory.
For sure, but it's still not so easy to get your head around!
- By my "students," I meant my graduate students, e.g., Je77 is
mostly a UNIX person, Lex is entirely a Linux user, Joshua is mostly a Linux user. Bolot is our sole Windows maven. The Macs I keep putting in the lab collect dust in the corners...
Well, you could always crate one up and send it to me! I'd really like to play with a Mac and see what all the fuss is about but I don't know anyone who has one and, well, I can buy Sparc kit for less.
- My undergraduate students (http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu/cs2340) are
mostly Windows users (like most of the universe), but with a very vocal *nix minority.
Feel free to ask them to contribute to the survey. It'll be interesting to find out if the advent of Windows XP turns more of your undergrads towards or away from Windows.
- People on this list are a majority, but are probably not the
complete Squeak-using universe. My guess is that Squeakers NOT on this list are probably heavily Windows users, as the majority of computer users are.
That would be my initial guess too, but then I wonder if the path to finding (and recognising) Squeak actually demands something similar to the path to different OSs? After all, why should non-list Squeakers be different to list Squeakers (except in so far as most list Squeakers have found it to be something they like)?
BTW, I'll start summarising the results (it's been a _very_ impressive turn out) on Thursday after Buffy (around 1900 GMT), so there's still plenty of time to submit.
Cheers
John
Reputed to be the reason Windows 2000 was nearly a year late, (paid in shares M$Ds needed the cash and kudos) Netproject's Eddie Bleasdale has renewed his challenge to virus writers. The first person to infect his Linux box wins 10,000 pounds.
http://www.silicon.com/bin/bladerunner?30REQEVENT=&REQAUTH=21046&140... =REQINT1=48211
Having been flamed for my email and misunderstood, I feel it only right that my point is clear. Here is my reply that I don't agree is off-topic for the thread.
---------------------
Hello X, Having just done some things with Squeak in full screen mode using morphs, forms and pens I cannot agree that I need to be constrained by windows whether I like it or not. Before I forget and become misunderstood I wouldn't abandon using windows in programs, I'd just use them when they were most appropriate. (I wouldn't want to be called a hypocrite if there was a window in any project I made would I :-))
Then there were the couple of interesting apps [Such as the Xerox Parc Information Visualiser]. That's really what I'm thinking of. As for the mind, I was more thinking about visualisation. Anything in the mind can be replicated on the screen and it needn't be in a window.
To be honest X, I'm not so interested in the OS side of things at the moment. I know you like Linux, I use it for Java, and will learn it more when I study things like servers, TCP/IP, databases and so on. But for Squeak, I know I can just copy and paste a load of images on the desktop and that is cool. I don't think that can be done with Linux, maybe can be with the Mac.
Anyway back from the digression, what I was originally referring to is that Squeak should be pretty much the same on all of the OSes. That's all.
Regards, Gary -------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary McGovern" garywork@lineone.net To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:25 AM Subject: Re: A survey of OSs used by Squeakers
Does it really matter ? I know MS has the most unfavourable reputation,
but
they are all of a muchness (as personal computers) in comparison to how
they
could have been .
When I look at what was being done in 1980 with Smalltalk I must say I'm miffed to realise how slow the software industry has been through just taking up the window and desktop metaphor. Not enough have "clicked" on the mind metaphor.
Who wants to be constrained by windows whether it's called Windows or not
?
Not I !
Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hinsley" jhinsley@telinco.co.uk To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 10:41 PM Subject: Re: A survey of OSs used by Squeakers
Mark Guzdial wrote:
For me it's a way of trying to resolve Mark's statement that most of
his
students use Linux and Maarten's assertion that 90% of Squeakers use Windows with my own gut feeling that Mac users are very well
represented
on this list and that while Windows users outnumber Linux users, it's not by much.
None of the above are really contradictory.
For sure, but it's still not so easy to get your head around!
- By my "students," I meant my graduate students, e.g., Je77 is
mostly a UNIX person, Lex is entirely a Linux user, Joshua is mostly a Linux user. Bolot is our sole Windows maven. The Macs I keep putting in the lab collect dust in the corners...
Well, you could always crate one up and send it to me! I'd really like to play with a Mac and see what all the fuss is about but I don't know anyone who has one and, well, I can buy Sparc kit for less.
- My undergraduate students (http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu/cs2340) are
mostly Windows users (like most of the universe), but with a very vocal *nix minority.
Feel free to ask them to contribute to the survey. It'll be interesting to find out if the advent of Windows XP turns more of your undergrads towards or away from Windows.
- People on this list are a majority, but are probably not the
complete Squeak-using universe. My guess is that Squeakers NOT on this list are probably heavily Windows users, as the majority of computer users are.
That would be my initial guess too, but then I wonder if the path to finding (and recognising) Squeak actually demands something similar to the path to different OSs? After all, why should non-list Squeakers be different to list Squeakers (except in so far as most list Squeakers have found it to be something they like)?
BTW, I'll start summarising the results (it's been a _very_ impressive turn out) on Thursday after Buffy (around 1900 GMT), so there's still plenty of time to submit.
Cheers
John
Reputed to be the reason Windows 2000 was nearly a year late, (paid in shares M$Ds needed the cash and kudos) Netproject's Eddie Bleasdale has renewed his challenge to virus writers. The first person to infect his Linux box wins 10,000 pounds.
http://www.silicon.com/bin/bladerunner?30REQEVENT=&REQAUTH=21046&140...
=REQINT1=48211
Gary McGovern wrote:
Having been flamed for my email and misunderstood, I feel it only right that my point is clear. Here is my reply that I don't agree is off-topic for the thread.
Gary, who flamed you? I replied to you *off the list* because I didn't want to clutter up a busy list with what could degenerate very quickly into a discussion of the merits of various operating systems. I'm quite happy to have that conversation, but _not_ here, please.
I sent you one email (and we've talked off list before, so it's hardly a huge breach of netiquette) you replied, and I replied again. Generally I don't think I was doing anymore than stating my point and asking for clarification where I simply couldn't understand what you meant. I'm still waiting for one set of clarifications/examples. Having looked at the emails again, they are the very model of civil discourse!
BTW, when I refered in the Preliminary Survey Results to some responses being off topic, I meant that they didn't contain the data (some people sent me more than one email, some people discussed stuff but sent no data). This wasn't a criticism, and it was _not_ pointed at you.
If that offended you, I'm sorry, for I am the X refered to.
Cheers
John
//snipped//
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org
-
Alain Fischer -
Andrew C. Greenberg -
Duane Maxwell -
Gary McGovern -
John Hinsley -
Mark Guzdial -
Pablo Murias -
Roger Vossler -
Simon Michael -
woods＠weird.com