Hi all,
last week, I published 2 polls (http://www.doodle.ch/5u67s53greapfdu6 and http://www.doodle.ch/9y9r6nr2imci8g38) to help me know what you want for the squeak-dev images. From these polls, I can conclude that:
- you are becoming more and more interested in 3.10 - you believe some beta tools are stable enough to include in all images (Nice fonts, UI Enhancements and SUnitGUI-improved).
However, I do not understand why so much people continue to download 3.9 based images. Maybe because there is the word 'beta' associated with 3.10 based images on my webpage.
Here is my propositions for the future squeak-dev versions:
- include Nice fonts, UI Enhancements and SUnitGUI-improved in all images - only base one image on top of 3.9 and update it less often. I still haven't decided if this image will contain the web stuffs or not. Any opinion? - create 2 stable dev- and web- images based on 3.10 - create a beta 3.10 based dev-image. I plan to use Level Playing Field and Packages to generate this image. I will also put Algernon, the new Diff tools and other beta pakages in it.
Could you please give me your opinion on these choices? Do I have to create another poll for something?
Thank you
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 09:20:25AM +0200, Damien Cassou wrote:
Hi all,
last week, I published 2 polls (http://www.doodle.ch/5u67s53greapfdu6 and http://www.doodle.ch/9y9r6nr2imci8g38) to help me know what you want for the squeak-dev images. From these polls, I can conclude that:
- you are becoming more and more interested in 3.10
- you believe some beta tools are stable enough to include in all
images (Nice fonts, UI Enhancements and SUnitGUI-improved).
However, I do not understand why so much people continue to download 3.9 based images. Maybe because there is the word 'beta' associated with 3.10 based images on my webpage.
I don't use the 3.10 beta images precicely because they include UIEnhancements, which severely reduces the color contrast in title bars and popup menus, and also eliminates the red border around edited texts.
(and because OB is way too slow on an XO computer, but that's another story)
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Matthew Fulmer tapplek@gmail.com wrote:
I don't use the 3.10 beta images precicely because they include UIEnhancements, which severely reduces the color contrast in title bars and popup menus, and also eliminates the red border around edited texts.
I would have appreciated answers to the polls when I posted them. Most persons who answered would like to see UI Enhancements. Please now vote if you don't like a package : http://www.doodle.ch/9y9r6nr2imci8g38. If other people agrees with him, please say so in the polls.
(and because OB is way too slow on an XO computer, but that's another story)
OB is the default browser in all squeak-dev images not just 3.10 ones. I don't understand.
Sorry for late response... I could introduce a preference for the nasty (IMHO) red outline for modifications... particularly ugly/distracting for things like workspaces though. You are quite welcome to leave feedback on the Swiki (when it becomes available again!).
As for contrast I agree that the default StrikeFonts suffer somewhat with some themes, FreeType is more than legible. Of Course you can always choose the "StandardSqueak" theme for a 3.9 look while retaining the feel/usability improvements.
Regards, Gary.
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Matthew Fulmer Sent: 09 July 2008 8:33 AM To: squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN][Squeak-dev Images] Revival
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 09:20:25AM +0200, Damien Cassou wrote:
Hi all,
last week, I published 2 polls (http://www.doodle.ch/5u67s53greapfdu6 and http://www.doodle.ch/9y9r6nr2imci8g38) to help me know what you want for the squeak-dev images. From these polls, I can conclude that:
- you are becoming more and more interested in 3.10
- you believe some beta tools are stable enough to include in all
images (Nice fonts, UI Enhancements and SUnitGUI-improved).
However, I do not understand why so much people continue to download 3.9 based images. Maybe because there is the word 'beta' associated with 3.10 based images on my webpage.
I don't use the 3.10 beta images precicely because they include UIEnhancements, which severely reduces the color contrast in title bars and popup menus, and also eliminates the red border around edited texts.
(and because OB is way too slow on an XO computer, but that's another story)
-- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
Sorry for late response... I could introduce a preference for the nasty (IMHO) red outline for modifications... particularly ugly/distracting for things like workspaces though. You are quite welcome to leave feedback on the Swiki (when it becomes available again!).
Regards, Gary.
It's not the color that's important, it's the visual indicator that a change has occurred and it'll need saved. I use UIEnhancements and I really really miss the red border. There needs to be a change indicator, every decent text editor in the world has such an indicator, be it an asterisks next to the file name on the tab or a big ugly red border, it's a vital feature.
Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com
Ah, well. Our browsers show "Modified" in the title bar when code has changed. Version 327 of Pinesoft-Widgets on SqueakSource now has a preference (showTextEditingState) that provides a choice as to whether to use the old behaviour of coloured borders.
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Ramon Leon Sent: 21 July 2008 5:18 PM To: 'The general-purpose Squeak developers list' Subject: RE: [squeak-dev] [ANN][Squeak-dev Images] Revival
Sorry for late response... I could introduce a preference for the nasty (IMHO) red outline for modifications... particularly ugly/distracting for things like workspaces though. You are quite welcome to leave feedback on the Swiki (when it becomes available again!).
Regards, Gary.
It's not the color that's important, it's the visual indicator that a change has occurred and it'll need saved. I use UIEnhancements and I really really miss the red border. There needs to be a change indicator, every decent text editor in the world has such an indicator, be it an asterisks next to the file name on the tab or a big ugly red border, it's a vital feature.
Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com
On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 09:20:25 +0200, Damien Cassou wrote:
Hi all,
last week, I published 2 polls (http://www.doodle.ch/5u67s53greapfdu6 and http://www.doodle.ch/9y9r6nr2imci8g38) to help me know what you want for the squeak-dev images. From these polls, I can conclude that:
- you are becoming more and more interested in 3.10
- you believe some beta tools are stable enough to include in all
images (Nice fonts, UI Enhancements and SUnitGUI-improved).
However, I do not understand why so much people continue to download 3.9 based images.
If you promise to not take it personal: this is a question I often hear in the marketing department: why do people click the old stuff when their answers in the survey clearly point to the new stuff. Response from the WWW guy: these are most likely different (sub-)communities and we have no technical tools for relating individual downloaders with individual survey participants. Have a tool?
Maybe because there is the word 'beta' associated with 3.10 based images on my webpage.
Here is my propositions for the future squeak-dev versions:
- include Nice fonts, UI Enhancements and SUnitGUI-improved in all images
- only base one image on top of 3.9 and update it less often. I still
haven't decided if this image will contain the web stuffs or not. Any opinion?
- create 2 stable dev- and web- images based on 3.10
- create a beta 3.10 based dev-image. I plan to use Level Playing
Field and Packages to generate this image. I will also put Algernon, the new Diff tools and other beta pakages in it.
Could you please give me your opinion on these choices? Do I have to create another poll for something?
The way you have it is one series for GUI-ers and another for Web-ers; for me this is convenient and I don't want more.
In order to address bleeding edge things (sorry for taking Algernon as example) I propose to make a parallel line with *experimental* in the name. Sounds better than beta.
Thank you
Thank you for your good work! You help the always discriminated developer subspecies !
/Klaus
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 09:51:01AM +0200, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
If you promise to not take it personal: this is a question I often hear in the marketing department: why do people click the old stuff when their answers in the survey clearly point to the new stuff. Response from the WWW guy: these are most likely different (sub-)communities and we have no technical tools for relating individual downloaders with individual survey participants. Have a tool?
This is very true. This community is trying to go many different directions at once, but instead of give each subgroup a vehicle to go further faster, we put them in one huge room (squeak.org). This is why I think forks are very important for the community: give each subgroup the perfect tool for their task. Want a lean mean seaside developing machine? Pharo is the fork for you. Need to have a great experience building presentations with squeak? use etoys. Need to get a package as widely distributed as possible? LPF can help with that. Wanna just see what's available? FunSqueak is what you want.
That mostly leaves squeak.org with blue-plane researchers, who mostly need a kernel image that they can build anything on.
Identifying sub-communities and giving them an optimized squeak for their needs will help us stop bickering about what should or should not be in the squeak.org release, because, really, there is no image that will satisfy everybody. However, there are only a dozen or so sub-communities striving to emerge, and each will be quite happy with one or two images with the average of what the members of that subcommunity want.
On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 10:11:09 +0200, Matthew Fulmer wrote:
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 09:51:01AM +0200, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
If you promise to not take it personal: this is a question I often hear in the marketing department: why do people click the old stuff when their answers in the survey clearly point to the new stuff. Response from the WWW guy: these are most likely different (sub-)communities and we have no technical tools for relating individual downloaders with individual survey participants. Have a tool?
This is very true. This community is trying to go many different directions at once, but instead of give each subgroup a vehicle to go further faster, we put them in one huge room (squeak.org). This is why I think forks are very important for the community: give each subgroup the perfect tool for their task. Want a lean mean seaside developing machine? Pharo is the fork for you. Need to have a great experience building presentations with squeak? use etoys. Need to get a package as widely distributed as possible? LPF can help with that. Wanna just see what's available? FunSqueak is what you want.
That mostly leaves squeak.org with blue-plane researchers, who mostly need a kernel image that they can build anything on.
Identifying sub-communities and giving them an optimized squeak for their needs will help us stop bickering about what should or should not be in the squeak.org release, because, really, there is no image that will satisfy everybody. However, there are only a dozen or so sub-communities striving to emerge, and each will be quite happy with one or two images with the average of what the members of that subcommunity want.
I fully agree, thanks for this concise synopsis :) It looks like a start for rethinking organization top-down [no offense].
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Klaus D. Witzel klaus.witzel@cobss.com wrote:
However, I do not understand why so much people continue to download 3.9 based images.
If you promise to not take it personal: this is a question I often hear in the marketing department: why do people click the old stuff when their answers in the survey clearly point to the new stuff. Response from the WWW guy: these are most likely different (sub-)communities and we have no technical tools for relating individual downloaders with individual survey participants. Have a tool?
Do you propose that I continue to listen to downloaders? This way, I will generate event more images and it might confuse the downloaders who are not subscribed to squeak-dev. I really don't know what to do. This is why I asked people to answer the polls but only got 10 answers when downloads are more than 600 only for last month...
The way you have it is one series for GUI-ers and another for Web-ers; for me this is convenient and I don't want more.
In order to address bleeding edge things (sorry for taking Algernon as example) I propose to make a parallel line with *experimental* in the name. Sounds better than beta.
Ok for "experimental".
On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 10:12:25 +0200, Damien Cassou wrote:
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
However, I do not understand why so much people continue to download 3.9 based images.
If you promise to not take it personal: this is a question I often hear in the marketing department: why do people click the old stuff when their answers in the survey clearly point to the new stuff. Response from the WWW guy: these are most likely different (sub-)communities and we have no technical tools for relating individual downloaders with individual survey participants. Have a tool?
Do you propose that I continue to listen to downloaders? This way, I will generate event more images and it might confuse the downloaders who are not subscribed to squeak-dev. I really don't know what to do.
See suggestion below.
This is why I asked people to answer the polls but only got 10 answers when downloads are more than 600 only for last month...
Okay, you asked. Put your survey on the individual download page and "demand" answers (to, "please help make you a better service"), in return of enabling the submit button. This is a blend of needs of both sides, community and publisher. Then you can relate answers to downloader's needs.
The way you have it is one series for GUI-ers and another for Web-ers; for me this is convenient and I don't want more.
In order to address bleeding edge things (sorry for taking Algernon as example) I propose to make a parallel line with *experimental* in the name. Sounds better than beta.
Ok for "experimental".
:)
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Klaus D. Witzel klaus.witzel@cobss.com wrote:
Okay, you asked. Put your survey on the individual download page and "demand" answers (to, "please help make you a better service"), in return of enabling the submit button. This is a blend of needs of both sides, community and publisher. Then you can relate answers to downloader's needs.
I don't want to force the users to answer :-). What do you think of the new webpage? http://damien.cassou.free.fr/squeak-dev.html
On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 11:12:49 +0200, Damien Cassou wrote:
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Klaus D. Witzel klaus.witzel@cobss.com wrote:
Okay, you asked. Put your survey on the individual download page and "demand" answers (to, "please help make you a better service"), in return of enabling the submit button. This is a blend of needs of both sides, community and publisher. Then you can relate answers to downloader's needs.
I don't want to force the users to answer :-).
Fair :)
What do you think of the new webpage? http://damien.cassou.free.fr/squeak-dev.html
The (click on the links to jump to the download pages) doesn't mean a *page* ? Anyways:
Put atop the survey box: These images exist in 2 flavours, please help make you a better service by answering these two polls before downloading.
Put below the survex box: Click on a link to activate/initiate/"your term here" the download now.
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 11:34 AM, Klaus D. Witzel klaus.witzel@cobss.com wrote:
The (click on the links to jump to the download pages) doesn't mean a *page* ?
I don't understand this.
Anyways:
Put atop the survey box: These images exist in 2 flavours, please help make you a better service by answering these two polls before downloading.
Put below the survex box: Click on a link to activate/initiate/"your term here" the download now.
What about http://damien.cassou.free.fr/squeak-dev.html?
On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:53:43 +0200, Damien Cassou wrote:
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 11:34 AM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
The (click on the links to jump to the download pages) doesn't mean a *page* ?
I don't understand this.
Exactly, I do not understand the sentence in the (.)'s either. What download *page* does your sentence in the (.)'s talk about, aren't we already on the download page? I can see, on that page, only links to downloadable .zip files which can impossibly be meant by your "download pages" phrase?
Anyways:
Put atop the survey box: These images exist in 2 flavours, please help make you a better service by answering these two polls before downloading.
Put below the survex box: Click on a link to activate/initiate/"your term here" the download now.
This is exactly the one I am referring to, why/what do you ask me?
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Klaus D. Witzel klaus.witzel@cobss.com wrote:
Exactly, I do not understand the sentence in the (.)'s either. What download *page* does your sentence in the (.)'s talk about, aren't we already on the download page? I can see, on that page, only links to downloadable .zip files which can impossibly be meant by your "download pages" phrase?
Oh ok :-). It wass historical. It should now be fixed.
This is exactly the one I am referring to, why/what do you ask me?
To refresh the page and tell what you think about the changes.
On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:18:12 +0200, Damien Cassou wrote:
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
Exactly, I do not understand the sentence in the (.)'s either. What download *page* does your sentence in the (.)'s talk about, aren't we already on the download page? I can see, on that page, only links to downloadable .zip files which can impossibly be meant by your "download pages" phrase?
Oh ok :-). It wass historical. It should now be fixed.
Yes, so it is now :)
This is exactly the one I am referring to, why/what do you ask me?
To refresh the page and tell what you think about the changes.
Looks good :) I hope this brings you the feedback on the preferences of the downloaders. But if it doesn't, do put force on them, you are the publisher ;)
BTW, perhaps you want to put the above link into the ScriptManager's welcome (for convenience), and ask for feedback there too.
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Klaus D. Witzel klaus.witzel@cobss.com wrote:
BTW, perhaps you want to put the above link into the ScriptManager's welcome (for convenience), and ask for feedback there too.
Do you think anybody reads it?
On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 14:29:27 +0200, Damien Cassou wrote:
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
BTW, perhaps you want to put the above link into the ScriptManager's welcome (for convenience), and ask for feedback there too.
Do you think anybody reads it?
Short answer: yes, anybody is traditionally responsible for reading everything ;)
Long answer: make a second page "thank you for using the publication, etc, here's new news, etc, subscribe here, etc, complain there, etc, you are elite now, etc", put its link into the ScriptManager's welcome, then watch the web server's access log.
I know this is at times too much effort for (rather small) organizations, but it pays -- since *that* subcommunity is the most serious, they *use* a copy of the publication and not just store the download :) and, silence on this "post sales" channel would tell stories ;)
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Klaus D. Witzel klaus.witzel@cobss.com wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 14:29:27 +0200, Damien Cassou wrote:
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote:
BTW, perhaps you want to put the above link into the ScriptManager's welcome (for convenience), and ask for feedback there too.
Do you think anybody reads it?
Short answer: yes, anybody is traditionally responsible for reading everything ;)
Long answer: make a second page "thank you for using the publication, etc, here's new news, etc, subscribe here, etc, complain there, etc, you are elite now, etc", put its link into the ScriptManager's welcome, then watch the web server's access log.
I know this is at times too much effort for (rather small) organizations, but it pays -- since *that* subcommunity is the most serious, they *use* a copy of the publication and not just store the download :) and, silence on this "post sales" channel would tell stories ;)
I plan to setup a new web site with pier.
However, I do not understand why so much people continue to download 3.9 based images.
Likely because they have apps deployed in 3.9 so they want to develop in 3.9. Just because something new comes out, 3.10, doesn't mean it's going to get used, there has to be a compelling reason to upgrade that overrides the aversion to doing the work.
Even if 3.10 is just a bunch of bug fixes and an upgrade might entail nothing more than changing images for production sites, that's still a risk of breaking something that isn't currently broken. There's also a bit of stability that comes from running one version behind whatever the latest is. Letting someone else shake out the kinks in the new stuff is more pragmatic than making my customers do it. Not everyone thinks newer is automatically better.
You also have 3.9 listed as stable and 3.10 as experimental... Of course people are going to download 3.9. I also see nothing other than that listed to try and move me to 3.10, so I'd say you need to tell me why I should be using 3.10, and how it differs from 3.9 and how that will help me in some way.
Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com
Hi Ramon,
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Ramon Leon ramon.leon@allresnet.com wrote:
However, I do not understand why so much people continue to download 3.9 based images.
Likely because they have apps deployed in 3.9 so they want to develop in 3.9. Just because something new comes out, 3.10, doesn't mean it's going to get used, there has to be a compelling reason to upgrade that overrides the aversion to doing the work.
In fact, this sentence was related to the result of the poll in which few people voted for 3.9. If people are stillinterested in dev-images based on 3.9, they should say so in the poll (I know you did).
Even if 3.10 is just a bunch of bug fixes and an upgrade might entail nothing more than changing images for production sites, that's still a risk of breaking something that isn't currently broken. There's also a bit of stability that comes from running one version behind whatever the latest is. Letting someone else shake out the kinks in the new stuff is more pragmatic than making my customers do it. Not everyone thinks newer is automatically better.
I perfectly understand this concern and that is why I'm still building images from 3.9.
You also have 3.9 listed as stable and 3.10 as experimental... Of course
I will change that as soon as I decide what to generate next. I would like more people give his opinion and vote.
people are going to download 3.9. I also see nothing other than that listed to try and move me to 3.10, so I'd say you need to tell me why I should be using 3.10, and how it differs from 3.9 and how that will help me in some way.
Thank you for your comment
Hi,
Hi all,
last week, I published 2 polls (http://www.doodle.ch/5u67s53greapfdu6 and http://www.doodle.ch/9y9r6nr2imci8g38) to help me know what you want for the squeak-dev images. From these polls, I can conclude that:
- you are becoming more and more interested in 3.10
- you believe some beta tools are stable enough to include in all
images (Nice fonts, UI Enhancements and SUnitGUI-improved).
I like these 3, but this is true too that's a bit slow but I cope with it. I just have problem with italic fonts (don't know if fixed in last versions).
However, I do not understand why so much people continue to download 3.9 based images. Maybe because there is the word 'beta' associated with 3.10 based images on my webpage.
Here is my propositions for the future squeak-dev versions:
- include Nice fonts, UI Enhancements and SUnitGUI-improved in all images
- only base one image on top of 3.9 and update it less often. I still
haven't decided if this image will contain the web stuffs or not. Any opinion?
- create 2 stable dev- and web- images based on 3.10
- create a beta 3.10 based dev-image. I plan to use Level Playing
Field and Packages to generate this image. I will also put Algernon, the new Diff tools and other beta pakages in it.
I like the experimental idea.
It could also be squeak-dev-basic and squeak-dev-full where the later is less performant but comes with several "beta" tools.
Could you please give me your opinion on these choices? Do I have to create another poll for something?
I think the main effort must go for "squeak-dev-basic" with for instance the test reports etc... squeak-dev-full is a show-up, we can cope with little problems (otherwise that won't be squeak ;) ). And I think that be nice to have a script (Installer or whatever, that we can tweak) that transform a basic in full.
Thank you
Thanks a lot to you ;)
Cédrick
Damien Cassou-3 wrote:
Here is my propositions for the future squeak-dev versions:
- include Nice fonts, UI Enhancements and SUnitGUI-improved in all images
- only base one image on top of 3.9 and update it less often. I still
haven't decided if this image will contain the web stuffs or not. Any opinion?
- create 2 stable dev- and web- images based on 3.10
- create a beta 3.10 based dev-image. I plan to use Level Playing
Field and Packages to generate this image. I will also put Algernon, the new Diff tools and other beta pakages in it.
+1 Sounds good to me. Please disregard what I said about the Essential code critics package in the poll; I think I've got to the same setup under 3.10.
Thanks a lot for your work on these images, they're great. And I'd like to help with testing if the community tries to make an 'all tests run green' version.
...Stan
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org